.223 reloading

[Fleabag]

Well I thought I was on my way to learning to reload my used winne cases. shot and saved over a hundred rounds of both 64g fmj and 55g soft tops.

lubed and pushed out all the old primers, put them in my mates tumbler for cleaning, and left them for him to complete as i was heading back to the smog, he phones me up the next day and says next time you come down bring some primers that fit, what you on about I asked, He says he has ruined 4 cases trying to put the cci small rifle primers in to the winne cases and they don't fit.? . Rang the rfd up and he said that's a load of rubbish and my mate should learn to reload properly, suggested he cleans the hole out where the primers inserts with a proper tool, so i rings G back and tells him he says load of ****, the primers don't fit. so got G to send me a case up so I could show the frd, well I got the case and the primer and a case with a primer still in place, but G had found the problem by then. Two different types of primers used by Winchester and two different size primer holes.

The silver primers on the 55g all got replaced with cci but the 64g had brass primers and the cci were to big to fit in. What a commotion any body else had this problem.

[bob300w]

Ok, you have me beat, Winchester only make one small rifle primer, WSR 6 1/2 - 116, so what is your mate using to load these?

 

http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/CATALOG...ataprimers.aspx

 

Also, it would be very near impossible to ruin a case by trying to insert a too-large primer, the primer would collapse and quite possibly fire.

 

CCI don't make an odd size primer either;

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers.aspx

 

Neither do Remingtom;

http://www.remington.com/products/ammuniti...mp;_handgun.asp

Edited May 24, 2008 by bob300w

[Fleabag]

will get some pics next week, two cases side by side one has a brass coloured primer one has a silver primmer cci will only fit the silver primmer, the primers he managed to get in are flat and dis-shaped.

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[bob300w]

Yes, Winchester do use both brass or chromed primers, but they are both the same size, 6 1/2, small rifle. The only thing that I can think of is that your mate was trying to insert large rifle primers, in which case, I would give his reloads a wide berth, cos he ain't too clued up !

The only other thing that comes to mind is that he was trying to reload ex-military ammo and he had not removed the crimp from the case, this would cause the exactly the effect that you describe.

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[Fleabag]

Nope I helped him push out the old primers and didnt notice the colour difference, the 55g cases took the cci primers fine they just wont fit in the cases that had brass primers. I checked the cci primers and all had 400 small rifle on them. he loads all his ammo has done for about 6years so I don't think its any thing he is doing wrong. the 64g came from a frd and were 223.not 556. also the tool he used to scrap out the primmer hole worked in the 55g but would not fit in the 64g cases.

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[harv]

Check he has used the right sized plunger bit on the priming tool / press.

if not it is possible the softer primers may mishape causing them to fall out.

[bob300w]

What is the headstamp on the cases with the undersized holes? The primer colour makes no difference, it's simply that one is chromed, t'other is not, they are both the same size.

 

Small Rifle primer dimensions;

 

CCI; 400 .020" .1753" .109"

450 .025" .1750" .113"

BR4 .025" .1755" .109"

Federal; 200 .019" .1757" .111"

205M .0225" .1744" .1075"

Remington; 6 1/2 .020" .1753" .109"

7 1/2 .025" .1752" .110"

Winchester; SR .021" .1750" .109"

 

First dim. is primer metal thickness, second is diameter, third is height. Although there are very slight variatons between manufacturers, there is not enough to cause the problem that you describe.

"the primers he managed to get in are flat and dis-shaped." can you elaborate on this? All SR primers look alike, and all are the same size, the only difference being colour, brass or nickle.

Edit; Possibly mis-read it, you mean after he put them in?

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[Fleabag]

just on way home now, will try and get more info, not easy when you are 300 miles away.

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[davo]

I've reloaded loads of winchester .223 cases, with CCI 400 (silver colour) and Remington 7 1/2 BR (brass colour) primers never had a problem.

 

I think the 64gr rounds must be military surplus, it's a bit of a coincidence that, thats the weight of round the military use and they are FMJ.

Check the stamp on the base. if they are 5.56 military surplus you could be in for a potentially fatal experience because of the excess pressure of 5.56, you should not use 5.56 in a rifle chambered for .223, (before anybody jumps on that statement, their are exceptions AR15 derivatives etc.....)

[bob300w]

Firstly, 223/5.56 interchangeability was not the subject of discussion.

Secondly, there is not a problem, "potentially fatal" or any otherwise, with using reloaded 5.56 cases in 223 chambers, it is simply a matter of reducing the powder charge to accomodate the reduced capacity of some military cases, not all manufacturers cases have a reduced capacity, caused by the use of thicker brass, some use the same cases for military and civillian use.

In case anyone is concerned after reading the previous post, Winchester's press statement is as follows, it should be noted that this applies to factory loaded military ammunition only (referred to as 5.56), not reloads, that were the original discussion;

 

The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.

You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.

Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

Edited May 25, 2008 by henry d

[Landy]

I did have a slight problem as described but found it was not cleaning the pocket out properly by leaving debris or cleaning media inside the flash hole.

It’s quite easy to exert too much pressure and collapse the primers outer wall.

[davo]

I've reloaded loads of winchester .223 cases, with CCI 400 (silver colour) and Remington 7 1/2 BR (brass colour) primers never had a problem.

 

I think the 64gr rounds must be military surplus, it's a bit of a coincidence that, thats the weight of round the military use and they are FMJ.

Check the stamp on the base. if they are 5.56 military surplus you could be in for a potentially fatal experience because of the excess pressure of 5.56, you should not use 5.56 in a rifle chambered for .223, (before anybody jumps on that statement, their are exceptions AR15 derivatives etc.....)

Firstly, 223/5.56 interchangeability was not the subject of discussion.

Secondly, there is not a problem, "potentially fatal" or any otherwise, (********) with using reloaded 5.56 cases in 223 chambers, it is simply a matter of reducing the powder charge to accomodate the reduced capacity of some military cases, not all manufacturers cases have a reduced capacity, caused by the use of thicker brass, some use the same cases for military and civillian use.

In case anyone is concerned after reading the previous post, Winchester's press statement is as follows, it should be noted that this applies to factory loaded military ammunition only (referred to as 5.56), not reloads, that were the original discussion;

 

The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.

You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.

Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

 

 

 

Point out to me where I mentioned 5.56 reloads !!! I stated that you should not use 5.56 military surplus round in a rifle chambered for .223, because of the POTENTIAL safety implications.

As well as 'Leade' info, you should also have taken the time to make a mention of the MASSIVE difference in chamber pressures, 58000psi .223 as opposed to 78000psi for the 5.56, if you are happy to chance you're breach exploding in you're face then bash on mate.

AN EXPLODING BREACH CAN POTENTIALLY KILL OR BLIND THE SHOOTER AND ANYBODY ELSE IN THEIR VICINITY. Thats a real possibility I've not made it up for dramatic effect, what you or anybody else chooses to do is up to them, but it is highly irresponsible of you to dismiss the very real danger you so very daringly choose to brush off as nonsense.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

 

As for reloading a 5.56 military surplus case of course you can!! as you said the brass is usually slightly thicker meaning a reduced load in the reloaded case, the point I was making is that if the rounds are military surplus then the primer type and flash hole will probably be different NOT THE CASE, I asked Fleabag as others have to check the stamp on the case head to eliminate the possibility that it was 'mill spec ammo' therefore if it is that could be his primer problem!!!!! and I thought it an opportune moment to point out the POTENTIAL, NOT GUARANTEED TO HAPPEN, danger of using military surplus ammo, 5.56 in a .223.

 

So much for trying to help somebody out.

 

Anyway Fleabag hope you get it sorted mate any other enquiries should go direct to bob300w because he's the only person on here that apparently knows anything.

[davo]

Here you go for the non believers that 5.56 can be POTENTIALLY, dangerous in a rifle chambered for .223.......I'M NOT STATING THAT YOU'RE CHAMBERS GOING TO EXPLODE AND KILL YOU, BUT IT MIGHT, so be aware of the possibility or go through life thinking it won't be me, that sort of stuff happens to other people, besides which bob300w said it was OK.

 

Of course these might be rubbish as well!!

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

 

http://www.gunslot.com/forum/223-caliber

[markbivvy]

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...showtopic=17856

[deadeye ive]

Sure those 64gr FMJ's arent military with crimped primer pockets....................................................?

 

look into that.

Going off topic but of some relevance

 

Very hard to spot but American eagle have crimped primer pockets but their V-shok range don't .The give away being a indented circular line around the primer pocket of the AE.

 

You HAVE to remove the crimping first using a proper tool or else this happens .Look closely and you'll see where the outer material of the primer is pushed out in places

[bob300w]

Here you go for the non believers that 5.56 can be POTENTIALLY, dangerous in a rifle chambered for .223.......I'M NOT STATING THAT YOU'RE CHAMBERS GOING TO EXPLODE AND KILL YOU, BUT IT MIGHT, so be aware of the possibility or go through life thinking it won't be me, that sort of stuff happens to other people, besides which bob300w said it was OK.

 

Of course these might be rubbish as well!!

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

 

http://www.gunslot.com/forum/223-caliber

So much excitement and raised blood pressure, simply by not reading posts before engaging mouth.

The question had nothing to do with interchangeability of 223/5.56, and had you read my post of 01.48 PM the last paragraph states quite clearly that;

 

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

 

Which, had you bothered to read it, is what you appear to be, albeit hysterically, saying. If this is not what you are saying, then you apparently know better than Winchester, who issued the press release.

Now if you can gather up your teddies and replace them in the cot, maybe the thread can get back to the original problem of tight primer pockets.

[highseas]

OOHH hand bags at dawn

[davo]

Here you go for the non believers that 5.56 can be POTENTIALLY, dangerous in a rifle chambered for .223.......I'M NOT STATING THAT YOU'RE CHAMBERS GOING TO EXPLODE AND KILL YOU, BUT IT MIGHT, so be aware of the possibility or go through life thinking it won't be me, that sort of stuff happens to other people, besides which bob300w said it was OK.

 

Of course these might be rubbish as well!!

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

 

http://www.gunslot.com/forum/223-caliber

So much excitement and raised blood pressure, simply by not reading posts before engaging mouth.

The question had nothing to do with interchangeability of 223/5.56, and had you read my post of 01.48 PM the last paragraph states quite clearly that;

 

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

SO THERE IS A POTENTIAL SAFETY IMPLICATION......

 

Which, had you bothered to read it, is what you appear to be, albeit hysterically, saying. If this is not what you are saying, then you apparently know better than Winchester, who issued the press release. IT WOULD APPEAR YOU KNOW BETTER BECAUSE YOU SAID THERE IS NO PROBLEM.....

Now if you can gather up your teddies and replace them in the cot, maybe the thread can get back to the original problem of tight primer pockets.

 

Ahhh!! the pot calling the kettle black :yp: , put you're specs on and have another look, In line with the original question, I offered a suggestion that it might be Military surplus ammo, Military brass, check the stamp, different primer etc, which if it's obviously now at the reloading stage has been fired, if that firing took place in a rifle chambered for .223 then there could be a risk involved for the user, I then presented an advisory warning of a potential hazard that not everybody might have been aware of, whats the problem with that? Guns+Ammo+Safety........All associated in my book.

 

You seem to be confused as to whether to go with the Winchester release or with what you said earlier, have you changed you're mind about the possible safety implications? you're reply to my post was very firm in it's conviction that there were none, and I quote,

" Secondly, there is not a problem, "potentially fatal" or any other wise" , now are you saying there is a potential problem, ref the Winchester release, make up you're mind there is or there isn't.

 

Why you have chosen to slate my well intentioned advisory warning is known only to you and you're psychiatrist, threads sometimes drift slightly off topic but when personal safety and that of others around us is involved how can that be a bad thing, when it comes to weapons handling and safe shooting we as responsible holders of SGC-FAC should surely seek out all the information we can.

If you all ready know it all then well done you.

[Fleabag]

Well I thought I was on my way to learning to reload my used winne cases. shot and saved over a hundred rounds of both 64g fmj and 55g soft tops.

lubed and pushed out all the old primers, put them in my mates tumbler for cleaning, and left them for him to complete as i was heading back to the smog, he phones me up the next day and says next time you come down bring some primers that fit, what you on about I asked, He says he has ruined 4 cases trying to put the cci small rifle primers in to the winne cases and they don't fit.? . Rang the rfd up and he said that's a load of rubbish and my mate should learn to reload properly, suggested he cleans the hole out where the primers inserts with a proper tool, so i rings G back and tells him he says load of ****, the primers don't fit. so got G to send me a case up so I could show the frd, well I got the case and the primer and a case with a primer still in place, but G had found the problem by then. Two different types of primers used by Winchester and two different size primer holes.

The silver primers on the 55g all got replaced with cci but the 64g had brass primers and the cci were to big to fit in. What a commotion any body else had this problem.

 

Sorted now guys, the brass primers were crimped in place, cant be bothered to mess about with them. on a good note I have found the ideal combination for the rifle now.55g Nosler,25.5 g of vargit powder, 3100 fps. hole in hole at 300yrds(yep) zeroed at 100yrds 9 clicks to 200, 18 clicks to 300yrds. Thanks

[markbivvy]

hole in hole at 300yrds

thats near enough.

[deadeye ive]

hole in hole at 300yrds

thats near enough.

Mark

 

I have told you a trillion times now not to over exaggerate

[markbivvy]

not to over exaggerate

on this foum never.

[Fleabag]

hole in hole at 300yrds

thats near enough.

Thought it was luck, but done it again today on a steel plate two in one big dent one smaller dent 1" away kept the plate to. thats rested by the way. not bipod.

[Fleabag]

Sure those 64gr FMJ's arent military with crimped primer pockets....................................................?

 

look into that.

Going off topic but of some relevance

 

Very hard to spot but American eagle have crimped primer pockets but their V-shok range don't .The give away being a indented circular line around the primer pocket of the AE.

 

You HAVE to remove the crimping first using a proper tool or else this happens .Look closely and you'll see where the outer material of the primer is pushed out in places

Nice to see a pro, deadeye. spot on.