took advise

[bignoel]

took some advise of here from a weeks ago about putting 4 splits in the head of a 22 bullit head and tried it out on 3 foxes at around 40 yards on a pestcontrol job where a bigger rifle was not opptional the bullit was winchester 22 .result was instant dropt like flys out right heavy damage .

[Evilv]

That's interesting Noel, but I'm just wondering if such handiwork might effect accuracy. I'd have thought that any minor differences in the placement of the cuts would affect the way the bullet flies, and speaking for myself, I think I'd be almost sure to have variations in the cuts from round to round.

 

Was the bullet already of expanding type - like a hollow point with additional cuts?

 

Where did you hit the foxes?

 

I expect that a .22 in the head at 40 yards would drop them anyway. I've heard of slaughter men dropping dangerous bulls with a .22 when called out to destroy an animal on the farm that was running amok.

 

Special Forces have for some time used silenced sub sonic .22s to quietly kill sentries and guard dogs at close range, and I'm not talking about putting the gun on the head of the target either.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Evilv

[sapper063]

o dear is this not classed as a dumb dumb bullet which i think illegal

[allthegearandnoidea]

hollow points are 'dumdum' bullets and they are not illegal.

[bob300w]

hollow points are 'dumdum' bullets and they are not illegal.

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points.

[harv]

That's interesting Noel, but I'm just wondering if such handiwork might effect accuracy. I'd have thought that any minor differences in the placement of the cuts would affect the way the bullet flies, and speaking for myself, I think I'd be almost sure to have variations in the cuts from round to round.

 

Was the bullet already of expanding type - like a hollow point with additional cuts?

 

Where did you hit the foxes?

 

I expect that a .22 in the head at 40 yards would drop them anyway. I've heard of slaughter men dropping dangerous bulls with a .22 when called out to destroy an animal on the farm that was running amok.

 

Special Forces have for some time used silenced sub sonic .22s to quietly kill sentries and guard dogs at close range, and I'm not talking about putting the gun on the head of the target either.

 

I agree with the above i dont think you should be tampering with a proven design, if one of these grooves runs the rifling at a bullets speed i would think there is a fair chance it could split on exiting

the barrel.

if you want this effect use a shotgun. i am no ballistics expert however you are messing with things

you shouldnt be and as a sgc/fac holder i think you should be more responsible.

[allthegearandnoidea]

hollow points are 'dumdum' bullets and they are not illegal.

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points.

 

Fair enough, but does that make them completely illegal or just illegal for military use?

[bob300w]

hollow points are 'dumdum' bullets and they are not illegal.

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points.

 

Fair enough, but does that make them completely illegal or just illegal for military use?

Only illegal for military use, the majority of bullets used for deer shooting are soft points, FMJ is illegal to use on deer.

[Evilv]

hollow points are 'dumdum' bullets and they are not illegal.

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points.

 

I was reading about this the other day Bob. They replaced the Martini Henry 45/70 with the new fangled high velocity .303 and when they shot the savages with them in those hot and nasty countries (I think it was around Afghanistan somewhere) they just got up and came on running, not having had the convincing shock of being hit by a .45.

 

They used these lead dum dumbs quite happily until having to fight against western people and then it was thought bad form. Also, they didn't want the same kind of stuff back from them (two way dum dums). This is where it all gets cynical. The boffins designed an FMJ bullet that gets unstable when it hits flesh and tumbles causing severe wounds. This was done by filling the pointy end with an aluminium tip under the FMJ or even sterilised wood pulp, believe it or not. The military rounds are not as nice and civilised as they pretend to be.

 

MORE INFO HERE ->

 

Article on .303 and dum dums.

 

 

 

 

To all intents and appearances, the new Mark 7 bullet was a fully jacketed pointed bullet weighing 174 grains. However, things were not as they may have appeared. Beneath the full metal jacket lurked a radical bullet design, for anyone who sectioned one of the new bullets found an aluminium tip under the point, which extended fully one third of the bullet’s length. Beneath this aluminium tip was the conventional lead core.

 

This design firstly ensured that the bullet was long for its weight, which is not a bad thing at all for enhanced long range performance. Mainly, however, the bullet’s centre of gravity was now further to the rear, which caused it to be unstable on impact and prone to tumbling. This of course greatly increased its wounding potential, but never mind - it had a full metal jacket to keep the politicians happy! Hypocritical, isn’t it? Here was a bullet far more devastating than the original "dum dum", but which was now acceptable because it didn’t actually expand - it just tumbled through like a buzz-saw! That’s politics for you. Are you surprised? No, I didn’t think you would be.

 

Schematic of MKII Bullet, MKV Hollowpoint and MK7 Spitzer.

Left to right: .577/450 Martini Henry, MKII .303, MKV Hollowpoint .303, MK7 .303,8x57mm Mauser, 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher.

I can certainly attest to the effectiveness of this design, having seen first-hand the effects of .303 rifles during post mortems. Typically it breaks into bits, and the sight of the aluminium tip on an X-ray is always a sure sign that you are dealing with a .303. Interestingly enough, the tip is not always of aluminium.

 

Sir Sidney Smith, an eminent forensic pathologist and pioneer forensic ballistics experimentor, had cause to examine a great many wounds caused by .303 rifles during the riots and nationalist upheavals in Egypt during the 1920’s. He found that some of the bullets had a wood pulp tip under the jacket, and accordingly wrote to the War Office pointing out that (a), some ammunition manufacturers were using wood pulp instead of aluminium in their bullets, ( that the wood pulp tips appeared to be achieving the same results as the aluminium, and © if this were so, would it not be much cheaper to use wood pulp in all ammunition instead of aluminium?

 

The War Office replied, saying that they were aware of the substitution as it had been authorised during the First World War at a time when aluminium was in critically short supply. Furthermore it would not, as supposed, be cheaper to use wood pulp, as the pulp had to go through a number of sterilising procedures to ensure that wounds would not become infected or contaminated by it. This struck Sir Sidney - as it does me - as a rather delicate thoughtfulness for the victim of a gunshot!

 

Actually, this engineered instability within the Mark 7 .303 bullet has largely been the cause of its controversial reputation in the hunting fields. Its predecessor, of moderate speed and round nose, was renowned for its penetration, and a great many of the old professional ivory hunters made a start with an Army surplus Lee and a crate of Mark 2 ammunition. The arrival of the Mark 7 bullet severely curtailed penetration, and performance was erratic even on the larger soft-skinned species (let alone elephants)! Of course, if one used round nosed solids when penetration was needed and the excellent Kynoch 215 grain soft noses for lighter game, all was well. The abundance of Mark 7 ammo meant that not many did this, of course, so the .303 began to get a bad reputation in the hunting field, which it by no means deserved.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Evilv

[bob300w]

That's interesting Noel, but I'm just wondering if such handiwork might effect accuracy. I'd have thought that any minor differences in the placement of the cuts would affect the way the bullet flies, and speaking for myself, I think I'd be almost sure to have variations in the cuts from round to round.

 

Was the bullet already of expanding type - like a hollow point with additional cuts?

 

Where did you hit the foxes?

 

I expect that a .22 in the head at 40 yards would drop them anyway. I've heard of slaughter men dropping dangerous bulls with a .22 when called out to destroy an animal on the farm that was running amok.

 

Special Forces have for some time used silenced sub sonic .22s to quietly kill sentries and guard dogs at close range, and I'm not talking about putting the gun on the head of the target either.

 

But that's not with your bog-standard 22 s/sonic, that's with these babies on the left;

 

[Evilv]

They look heavy Bob. Must be about 60 grains at least. Not much room for powder either, but I suspect that most of the case in an Eley sub is empty anyway. Just a sniff of powder - but I'm just guessing here, although I have shaken them and you can hear that there isn't much inside them if you shake them near your lug hole and then do the same with an HV round the powder difference is obvious in a rough and ready kind of way.

 

Also Bob, which of my points were you referring to, the one about slaughtermen and crazed bulls or the special forces one?

Edited July 24, 2008 by Evilv

[bob300w]

The only rounds that are Dum-Dum are those made in the Dum-Dum Arsenal in India. These were never officially adopted by the British Service.

Interestingly, Britain did not ratify the Geneva Convention's decrees immediatly, but nevertheless did withdraw expanding bullets (Woolwich Arsenal had also developed an expanding bullet) from front line use "in visible areas". It was 1903-4 before they were declared obsolete.

 

Despite urban myth, the Mk V11 303 bullet, introduced in 1910, did not have a fibre or aluminium tip to make it tumble on impact, it was actually designed to allow the weight of the bullet to be reduced, without a corresponding reduction in length. Ballistically, the longer the bullet in relation to it's diameter the better.

[bob300w]

They look heavy Bob. Must be about 60 grains at least. Not much room for powder either, but I suspect that most of the case in an Eley sub is empty anyway. Just a sniff of powder - but I'm just guessing here, although I have shaken them and you can hear that there isn't much inside them if you shake them near your lug hole and then do the same with an HV round the powder difference is obvious in a rough and ready kind of way.

 

Also Bob, which of my points were you referring to, the one about slaughtermen and crazed bulls or the special forces one?

[markbivvy]

took some advise of here from a weeks ago about putting 4 splits in the head of a 22 bullit head and tried it out on 3 foxes at around 40 yards on a pestcontrol job where a bigger rifle was not opptional the bullit was winchester 22 .result was instant dropt like flys out right heavy damage .

 

 

I bet the winchester company are all split up over this little ditty,

after all the millions they have spent on ammo development .

[bob300w]

took some advise of here from a weeks ago about putting 4 splits in the head of a 22 bullit head and tried it out on 3 foxes at around 40 yards on a pestcontrol job where a bigger rifle was not opptional the bullit was winchester 22 .result was instant dropt like flys out right heavy damage .

 

 

I bet the winchester company are all split up over this little ditty,

after all the millions they have spent on ammo development .

Not 'alf! Those that recommend this should try it for accuracy, they won't bother again. Why not hit the head of the bullet with a hammer before firing it ? It's already mushroomed then, when it hits the target!

[bignoel]

all where head shots nice and clean out right kill's no dumb dum bullets ,this did not affect the flight path i hit where i aimed they where winni i put the splits in a x on the head of the bullit nothing wrong with the accuracy it was perfect at 40 yards now i cant vouch for it at any longer distance's. harv did you not read post correctly bigger rifle not a option ? shotgun with out a silencer dont thinkso

[codling99]

at 40 /60 yds a subsonic will drop a fox on the spot 9 out of 10 times anyway,with head shot,and with chest shot they wont run on far if they do it s normally adrenalin keeping them running,ive hit a fox with .222 in the chest at around 100 yds and it ran a few hundred yds

when we found it ,hit had hardly any insides left but still managed to run as if id missed it.basically mate,dont tamper with rounds ,they ll kill with out tampering with them,and might kil you if you do

[bignoel]

and there's me thinking peter peter knew what he was talking about ?

[codling99]

he might,but telling or advising people to cut live rounds to make more damage or kill better? ****** that,have you ever shot a subsonic round into a piece of timber or something similar and seen how far it actually goes in to the wood?? at around 40 yds ish,a 22 sub sonic round sinks about 3/4 inches in to a treated corner fence post,thats enough to drop most things

[bob300w]

and there's me thinking peter peter knew what he was talking about ?

It's an urban myth, dates back to WW1, and probably previous to that.

Cutting a bullet will affect it's accuracy, try it if you don't believe it. If it worked successfully, manufacturers would make bullets like this, to my knowledge, no bullet has ever been manufactured with a cross cut in the head, apart from the "Lord Keane's cruciform expanding projectile" that was cross-cut and had a hard x-shaped plug that drove into the bullet and opened it. This was back in the days of black powder, and that's where it stayed.

[codling99]

and there's me thinking peter peter knew what he was talking about ?

It's an urban myth, dates back to WW1, and probably previous to that.

Cutting a bullet will affect it's accuracy, try it if you don't believe it. If it worked successfully, manufacturers would make bullets like this, to my knowledge, no bullet has ever been manufactured with a cross cut in the head, apart from the "Lord Keane's cruciform expanding projectile" that was cross-cut and had a hard x-shaped plug that drove into the bullet and opened it. This was back in the days of black powder, and that's where it stayed.

 

 

 

might just be accurate at 30/40 yds . but still totally pointless and could be dangerous.

[harv]

all where head shots nice and clean out right kill's no dumb dum bullets ,this did not affect the flight path i hit where i aimed they where winni i put the splits in a x on the head of the bullit nothing wrong with the accuracy it was perfect at 40 yards now i cant vouch for it at any longer distance's. harv did you not read post correctly bigger rifle not a option ? shotgun with out a silencer dont thinkso

 

yep i read the post correctly, are you saying the only option to sort them was to deform the heads of .22 bullets, your choice not something i would do!

[bignoel]

i did try its accuracy for the short range of 40 yards and you are wrong it was spot on ?

[Evilv]

Just stick a CCI Stinger in the chamber next time and at 40 yards you could drop me in my tracks let alone old Charlie.

 

I'm not recommending the old .22 for this work, but doing it that way would be a hell of a lot better than taking a hack saw or a pen knife to the business end of a bullet.

[codling99]

i did try its accuracy for the short range of 40 yards and you are wrong it was spot on ?

 

at that range a brick would be accurate,but the damage would be the same,the fox would be dead ,butchered ammo or not