Tikka T3 fitted with T8 - keeps changing zero

[Ballie]

I have got a problem that is driving me mad, my Tikka T3 s/s, which is fitted with a T8 mod, and 8x56 30mm Hung/Schmidt keeps needing re-zeroing after cleaning.

 

I can zero it to about 1/2 - 1 inch group at 110 yards. I normally get 2 bullets almost through the same hole and the 3rd just slightly off forming a cloverleaf.

 

However every time I take the Mod off to clean the rifle and then re-fit the mod the zero changes, it could be left, right, high or low but it will be between 2 to 6 inches off from its last zero.

 

I have tried all the obvious things like making sure all the mounts are tight and that the action to stock screws are tight, it’s driving me made. The gun is almost new and has shoot about 50 rounds the mod was fitted by Richard Smith in Norfolk.

 

The gun shoots very well with or without a mod it’s just the fact that you have to keep re-zeroing it after removing the mod, I am so p…. off I am thinking of selling it and buying a heavy barrelled Sako.

 

Can anyone help.

[lesf]

I have got a problem that is driving me mad, my Tikka T3 s/s, which is fitted with a T8 mod, and 8x56 30mm Hung/Schmidt keeps needing re-zeroing after cleaning.

 

I can zero it to about 1/2 - 1 inch group at 110 yards. I normally get 2 bullets almost through the same hole and the 3rd just slightly off forming a cloverleaf.

 

However every time I take the Mod off to clean the rifle and then re-fit the mod the zero changes, it could be left, right, high or low but it will be between 2 to 6 inches off from its last zero.

 

I have tried all the obvious things like making sure all the mounts are tight and that the action to stock screws are tight, it’s driving me made. The gun is almost new and has shoot about 50 rounds the mod was fitted by Richard Smith in Norfolk.

 

The gun shoots very well with or without a mod it’s just the fact that you have to keep re-zeroing it after removing the mod, I am so p…. off I am thinking of selling it and buying a heavy barrelled Sako.

 

Can anyone help.

 

Your loss of zero. I am prezuming, is the first shot after cleaning. What about the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th shots?

After I have cleaned any of my rifles I fire the first shot into the dirt as a mater of course to clear any residule oil. Don't clean it so often unless you fire off a lot of rounds.

ATB

LesF

[Ballie]

Well yes and no!

 

I have found as you have, the first shot after cleaning always goes a miss, but my problem is that even if I do fire the first shoot into the ground (I always put one though the gun after cleaning, before putting the gun away) all the shoots will be off the previous zero, a nice tight group but not on the zero. You have to re-adjust the scope.

[Dunkield]

I would be tempted to take the whole thing along to the guy that fitted the mod.

 

It will have a single start thread so when you put it back on it should pick up from where it came undone.

Is the bush that goes round the barrel a good fit?

 

Also, have you tried...

 

Taking the mod off/on again and firing 3 shots without cleaning the gun?

 

T8's are pretty good at retaining zero from what I have read, never heard of them doing this anyway, unless anyone wants to contradict that?

[CharlieT]

Ballie

 

Does the zero hold if you don't use the T8

 

What You will need to do is to try and determine what is actually causing this.

Without cleaning your T3, as suggested, I would take the mod off and put it on again and see what happens. From the wording of your post it seems you are separating the stock from the action, next try this and recheck your zero. and so on. By going through all the mechanics of your cleaning regime without actually cleaning the bore you will or should find the actual problem. You will then be in a better position to address the cause. However from my experience of using my T8 on various caliber rifles I would lean towards the rear bush being the incorrect size or failing that a fault with the threading.

 

 

Charlie

[Ballie]

Sorry if my original post wasn't clear.

 

The guns seems to holds a good zero as long as I do not remove the T8 once the T8 has been removed and then re-fitted the point of impact changes, it will still shoot a nice group just not in the same place you zeroed it to before you removed and re-fitted the mod!

 

SOME MORE INFO -

 

I do not remove the action from the stock when cleaning (I have only once removed the stock when I first bought the gun)

 

I do use a gun cradle when cleaning.

 

I do use a bore guide when cleaning.

 

I am shooting Federal PREMIUM V-SHOK 70g Nosler Ballistic Tip

[lazza]

Ballie,I had the same problem as you. If I removed the mod the zero moved. At first I thought it was just me, but I was still grouping......just in different places! I am really fussy about zeroing and like to, on a bad day put 3 bullets in a 10p piece and put them within a 20p piece on a good day.

 

I thought about chucking the gun in the river, but ended up taking it back to the gunsmith. I checked the bush that sits on the barrel and this was tight.

 

He told me that in the T8 there is a crush ring and that usually the mod has been on and off the gun a good few times before it is handed to the owner and wouldn't cause a problem. He asked me for the screw on cover that I have to protect the thread when I'm not using the gun and sure enough there was a thin metal lip on this cover. He explained that this was the crush ring and there was one of these inside the T8. I noticed when he screwed the mod onto the gun, he placed the butt on the floor and just nipped the mod up with both hands. When I did this I felt the mod nip up a fraction more than before.

 

The next time I zeroed the gun, I did as he did and the zero never moved. I may have been a bit paranoid about this because I used 6 batches of 3 bullets, each time removing and refitting the mod, with no problems, and no problems since. Some people I have spoken to have never heard of this, but it worked for me.

[CharlieT]

Ballie

 

you have probably done this already but check out Jacksons website, there may be something on there that helps. However I think if I were you I would return the rifle to your gunsmith and explain the situation or send it off to someone like Steve Kershaw who I guarantee will sort it out. He has always managed to sort out all my cock ups and he is fast.

 

As I said before my first concern would be the rear bush diameter. Check it's not to tight.

 

Charlie

[Ballie]

This afternoon I phoned the gun smith that fitted the mod and told him of my problem, he said that sometimes you get a gun that does this and the only thing you can do is never remove the mod! ie clean it with the mod on!

 

Views on this would be welcome.

 

Also the bush on the back is not tight but not loose, if you hold the stock between your legs and try to wobble the mod you can't feel any movement.

[Browning]

Ballie,

 

Never take the mod off?? Clean your gun with the mod on???

 

Go back to the gunsmith and tell him he's talking utter *ollox !!

 

I have the same rifle as you in .243 fitted with a T8, along with many other lads on here,

I have never had a problem with shifting zero after removing the mod and I remove

the mod after every outing, in fact it was recommended to me by a very competent

gunsmith that I do exactly that.

 

I do exactly the same with the T8 on my T3 in .270, and I've never had a problem there either.

[skany]

Ballie,

 

Never take the mod off?? Clean your gun with the mod on???

 

Go back to the gunsmith and tell him he's talking utter *ollox !!

 

I have the same rifle as you in .243 fitted with a T8, along with many other lads on here,

I have never had a problem with shifting zero after removing the mod and I remove

the mod after every outing, in fact it was recommended to me by a very competent

gunsmith that I do exactly that.

 

I do exactly the same with the T8 on my T3 in .270, and I've never had a problem there either.

 

oh firrst post on htis board

 

I had a sim problem with a pest t12 & it was the back bush which was to tight!

 

I had eratic grouping sometimes with mod fitted so not exactily the same!

 

screw it on & of & it would act weird half the time!

 

Andy

[deadeye ive]

Sorry if my original post wasn't clear.

 

The guns seems to holds a good zero as long as I do not remove the T8 once the T8 has been removed and then re-fitted the point of impact changes, it will still shoot a nice group just not in the same place you zeroed it to before you removed and re-fitted the mod!

 

SOME MORE INFO -

 

I do not remove the action from the stock when cleaning (I have only once removed the stock when I first bought the gun)

 

I do use a gun cradle when cleaning.

 

I do use a bore guide when cleaning.

 

I am shooting Federal PREMIUM V-SHOK 70g Nosler Ballistic Tip

Along time ago I posted the exact same senario ...........My rifle is is the older 595 ,S/B 8 x 56 and T8 so a very similar set up apart from mine is wood and blue .

How many rounds are you firing in a Hour ?..........Because if your on the range and removing the mod and refitting then extreme barrel temperatures won't help with consistancy as you probably already know .

 

Are you removing the T8, cleaning,refitting and then having this problem ?.............If so .......

 

Never heard of a crush ring but the rear bush on mine has lightly removed some of the barrel blueing indicating a perfect fit .

The mod is recommended to be removed to allow the condense to evaporate ..........It is also reccomended that you spray WD40 down it ..........I don't has this throws the first shots off zero (If you are vigorous with it )but I store the mod in a sock with silicon sachets .

 

Cleaning can upset a rifles consistancy .............Allow me to explain has I went through the dilemna your going through .

I too use a bore guide but if I use a bronze brush then the first few shots are off zero .

If I lightly oil the rifling and follow through with a clean patch afterwards then this action causes unpredictablity in the first shots .

 

My conclusion for regular maintenance is NEVER use a bronze brush and oil the rifling ......Only jag and patches and Butches bore shine ............As a result my very first shots through a clean barrel are always on the nail now has some of the lads on here will confirm .

 

Another thing I had to do Ballie was remove some material from the barrel channel has the weight of the T8 caused my previous floating barrel to touch the stock .

 

Hope this is of some use .

 

Ps .........leaving oil in the rifling causes extreme pressures when a round is fired ..........it can't be removed by dry patches and a jag either .........A solvent or degreaser has to be applied .

[Graham M]

I also posted this same thing some time ago and it was only this week that I finally discovered what was going on. I ordered a “flash hider†(just a bit of fun really) from UK Neil, and he made one up for me.

Now, when I came to screw it home I found that it was only going on 9½ turns and stopping 3 mm short of the threaded spigot.

So! I tried my moderator (T8) and found that it too was only screwing on 9½ turns. This meant that it wasn’t going all the way and was actually being held by the threads alone and not fitting onto the shoulder of the barrel.

I bought a die and very carefully run it down the threads and found that the last 3-4 mm of thread had metal removed from them. The moderator screwed all the way on (13 turns) and the POI immediately resolved itself.

Check that your moderator is fully screwed home.

G.M.

[deadeye ive]

We did say at the time Graham that your smithing was a botch job ...........glad it's sorted now which is the main thing

[Graham M]

We did say at the time Graham that your smithing was a botch job ...........glad it's sorted now which is the main thing

That isn’t too far wrong of the mark D.I.

The same thing was wrong with the threading on my .17hmr, but because the moderator screwed onto the end of the barrel it showed up straight away. I borrowed a die off Mry at the time and was able to fix it straight away.

Because the T8 covers the threaded parts I wasn’t able to see it, so didn’t associate the spongy feel of screwing the mod’ up with anything other than a tight thread.

Botch job is the exact terminology that I have since used.

G.M.

[Ballie]

Thank for all the advise, over the next week or two I will have a play around with what has been suggested, also I think I will stop using the bronze brush. I will report back with my findings, once again thanks for all you help guys.

 

Ballie

[lesf]

Well yes and no!

 

I have found as you have, the first shot after cleaning always goes a miss, but my problem is that even if I do fire the first shoot into the ground (I always put one though the gun after cleaning, before putting the gun away) all the shoots will be off the previous zero, a nice tight group but not on the zero. You have to re-adjust the scope.

 

Have you tried different ammo? I had a similar problem once. I had a BRNO .243 and I could not for the life of me keep a decent group. Changed the ammo, wallop, perfik ! Chopped it in for a Sako S/S. I also now roll my own so dont have aproblem.

ATB lesf.

[Graham M]

Have you tried different ammo? I had a similar problem once. I had a BRNO .243 and I could not for the life of me keep a decent group. Changed the ammo, wallop, perfik ! Chopped it in for a Sako S/S. I also now roll my own so dont have aproblem.

ATB lesf.

But he isn't having trouble with his groups, his groups are great.

The trouble is they are moving each time he re-fits the moderator, which would indicate that the moderator is settling into a different place each time it’s fitted.

G.M.

[Ballie]

To bring you all up to date, I have zeroed my T3 at 130 yards, I managed to get 3 bullets with in a 1 inch group (Two bullets almost touching and the third ¾ inch away) I am happy with this group because the cross hairs block out 1 inch at 100yards so it’s almost impossible to shoot a tighter group than this without changing my scope.

 

I went out lamping last night and was fortunate enough to come across a fox. I shot the fox at 160 yards with a little bit of help form my FX3 caller, which called it in from over 250 yards. I hit the fox right where I aimed, in the chest.

 

Having now shot 8 rounds since its last clean, I thought I would clean the rifle again and see if the point of impact chances, however I decided to leave the T8 mod ON and NOT use a bronze brush. I put 3 patches soaked in Shooters Choice MC7 though the rifle I then left it for 5 minutes, I then put 3 clean dry patches though, then another 3 with S/C, then another 3 clean dry patches, by this time the dry patches where coming out clean so I then put 3 more patches though soaked in mentholated spirit followed by 3 clean dry patches. I left the rifle for about 30 minutes then went down the farm to shoot at a target and check the zero.

 

It fired a nice 3-bullet group, again just less than 1 inch, however as always the group was not in the same place as it was before cleaning. The group was 2 inches to the left!!! I really can’t work this out. Bearing in mind I did NOT remove the T8 mod and I did NOT use a bronze bush why should the point of impact change every time I clean it?

 

The scope needed 4 clicks to the left to hit the centre of the target, it is now re-zeroed and ready for action but I really would like to get to the bottom of this as it is costing me 3 bullets to re-zero after each clean.

[Dunkield]

Well the goods news is from this diagnosis that it isn't the mod, it is something in your cleaning routine.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't clean my rifle so often, but others will almost certainly disagree. . .

[Ballie]

Well the goods news is from this diagnosis that it isn't the mod, it is something in your cleaning routine.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't clean my rifle so often, but others will almost certainly disagree. . .

 

 

Yes looking on the bright side its not the mod!

 

I am happy to try anything can you tell me how many rounds you would fire before cleaning? (my rifle is almost new it has only fired about 60 rounds, which is why I have been cleaning after about every 5 or so shots)

[Quist]

I think your barrel is moving on the stock.

You might need rebedding.

[kip270]

If the point of Zero is changing so eratic how can it be the cleaning regime??

Go back to basics.

Check the rifle, stock screws,barrell clearence etc. (i know you said you have done it, but it won't harm to do it again)

Then check out your scope, if you have another scope, try that one, i know you have a S&B, but they do go wrong. A guy i used to shoot with had a 3-12x50 illuminated S&B on his Sako 25-06, and after a few shots his zero would shift He thought it was his shooting, and after getting several people to try it, he ended up sending his rifle to callum PR-rifles, and after testing it was a faulty scope. He was lucky to get a refund and then bought a Swarovski

 

I am surprised at the shift of zero, as i have a T8 and use it on my .222 & .270 and i have not had to change my scope at all, unless i try different bullets of course.

I suspect it's the scope, but i hope i'm wrong

[miffy]

Then check out your scope, if you have another scope, try that one, i know you have a S&B, but they do go wrong. A guy i used to shoot with had a 3-12x50 illuminated S&B on his Sako 25-06, and after a few shots his zero would shift He thought it was his shooting, and after getting several people to try it, he ended up sending his rifle to callum PR-rifles, and after testing it was a faulty scope. He was lucky to get a refund and then bought a Swarovski

 

Exactly the same thing happened to me with a 8 x 56 S&B scope a number of years ago. I thought i was going mad

 

Changed to a Swaro and had no problems ever since

[Ballie]

I am off out this morning to try something else, as some of you are suggesting it could be my scope I am going to lightly tap the rifle and scope and then check the POI, if the scope is faulty hopefully this will show it.

 

I will post back this afternoon.