deadeye ive Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 [i just can’t believe that cleaning moves the POI from day to day. I have never seen or heard anything like this in my life. G.M. I can't believe that cleaning can be the fault either which is why I am trying to ensure the barrel is free floating and everything is put back nice and tight after rebuilding it. Oh yes it can ......................been there myself remember Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGalway Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Same type of stock as mine, which also looked very messy when I worked on it. Little bit of smoothing out, quick wipe of a damp cloth and you'd hardly notice it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 That looks like a right botch up of a stock. Thank gawd I bought the wooden one. G.M. Yes, Tikka factory plastic stocks are truely horrible things. Even though they sound hollow and cheap I reckon the T3 stocks are better than the old 595/695's as they have glass in them to make them stiffer. I poured Plastic Metal into the webbing areas in the fore end of mine just to stiffen it a bit, so it doesn't flex as much off the bipod. The plastic is so soft I 'floated' mine using a pen knife I am glad it wasn't the scope Ballie, I didn't think it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Guys, time for an update…. As you will all remember I have been having problems with my rifle holding a zero, nice groups but just not always in the same place on the paper. Over the last week I have completely stripped the rifle and as I have rebuilt it I have checked and double-checked everything that has been suggested to me by all of the helpful people on this forum. I removed a fair bit of material from the stock to ensure that the barrel is actually free floating as I found there was a lug thing that was possibly touching the barrel about 90mm from the receiver, not sure it was touching but I had it off anyway! You can now easily pull a piece of 160g card up to within 10mm of the receiver. I have also checked the head space by putting pieces of masking tape on the end of an old bullet case and trying to close the bolt. It took 2 pieces of tape (0.0080 inch – 0.20 mm) and you could only just close the bolt. I am no expert so can anyone tell me is this head space ok? I re-fitted the mounts (they are Sako optilock so there was no need to lap because of the inserts) but I have made sure they are nice and tight on the receiver. I mounted the scope as mry716 told me, making sure the rifle is level and aligning the vertical cross hair with a piece of string hanging with a weight on at 60 yards (see photo’s). Having already ruled out the old scope (8x56 S/:lol: by trying it on a friends rifle, I have treated myself to a Night Force 5.5 x 22 x 56 which I got from Deako on PW, who beat any price I could get elsewhere. I have also had the Mod fitting checked, I took it to Andrew at riflecraft, Suffolk. He was not that impressed with the guy who fitted it work, but he did say that the fitting was more than adequate and that it would not affect the rifles performance. So that discounts the mod being the cause. Finally I have cleaned and re-cleaned (bought some Hoppoes bench rest 9) and the bore is now as clean as it can be. Weather permitting I will go out tomorrow (9th Feb) and sight it up. I will post back with results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deako Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Looking good mate, I zeroed our demo rifle VERY quickly a couple of days ago, as in 25 shots in 30 minutes (yes, I know I'm a tool, but really had to get back to the shop in a hurry ). Rifle was falling easily into 1" with Norma factory, but with a hot barrel. I then went out that night in -3 degrees and took a shot at a fox at 140 yards with a clean, ice cold barrel... ..."goodbye" said foxy as he ran off... Why the hell did I do that?...going to spend all day Sunday zeroing on a CLEAN, COLD barrel, which is what I always shoot when foxing. Just hoping that I don't get the same problems as you have had Ballie, lets hope we get both our rifles just right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Buy a strap spanner you can put a torque wrench on to and torque it up to the same setting everytime you fit it this should give you as close to the same resonance everytime you fit the moderator. To be honest I do mine hand tight and have never realy experianced any problems. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 The .22rf target shooters that I know, rarely clean their barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 hardly missed a rabbit with my 22 lr .till i cleaned it.nearly 3 inches out it was after cleaning barrel with pull through bore snake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 9R Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 For those that are thinking "what the hell has Ballie done to that stock" I have to say after seeing it in the flesh so to speak Ballie has done a good job on it, it has a small even gap between stock and barrel and after a wipe down the cut edge has returned to the right colour nice to meet you this morning, I hope the tests shots you were going to do went ok.. Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted February 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 The weather has been a little unkind for testing the zero, I have had to contend with fog, snow and wind but I have managed to get out and check what has happened since the rebuild. All the bullets fired are Federal V-Shock 70g Noz-BT and all at the distance of 130 yards, the squares on the paper targeets are 0.90 inch (not 1 inch) The first target below are the first few shots after the gun was rebuilt as you can see before firing this group of 3 I had already shot 6 other rounds to obtain a zero after re-fitting the scope etc. This next group was the all important one as it was shoot after the gun had been cleaned and had the mod removed and re-fitted. You can see the first shot out of a cleaned barrel is a bit high but I feel you should accept this as there is always a little cleaning fluid left in the rifling. The remaining 3 shoots taking the wind into consideration are all ok and as you can see the zero hasn't changed from where it was before cleaning (thank god!!!) The last group I shoot 2 days after the other two, the wind was a little stronger blowing and gusting head on with a slight right direction to it. Although the groups sizes are between 1 inch and 1 1/2 inches and I would like them a little tighter I am happy with the results as the zero is no longer shifting. Whether it was the stock touching the barrel or the scope being canted or something to do with cleaning I can't honestly say but all I can tell you all is that I am very grateful for all the help and advice I have received and I am now able to sleep at night knowing that my rifle is going to shoot straight next time I pick it up. As you can see from the targets I need to move the zero down 1 inch which I will now do I just didn't want to adjust anything whilst testing. I am confident that with home loads I will be able to get it to shoot sub 1 inch at 100 yards which is good enough for my needs. I will post back in a couple of weeks just to let you all know how things are and I will add the results of my home loads. Once again thanks guys. Ballie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kip270 Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Good news Ballie, glad it's sorted This is why this site is so good, a good bunch of guy's happy to share advice free of charge (gone all mushy now ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 We have been feeling your pain Ballie, but your troubleshooting of this problem will help others in the future. Glad it seems to be sorted, fingers crossed . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Nice work! Good to see that your Tikka's working well now and you can get on with trimming down the foxes up near you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Glad to see your getting some consistancy Out of interest what method are you using to zero your rifle ,and are you supporting the rear ?(Apologies if you've mentioned this earlier ) My own experiences have taught me that when using a Bi-pod especially the Harris 9-13 then it has to be has short as possible .............on one occasion due to the lie of the land I had to extend this harris out almost full and my 100yds groups opened up ,by switching to my S25C (12-27) which is more rigid they tightened up again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted February 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Glad to see your getting some consistancy Out of interest what method are you using to zero your rifle ,and are you supporting the rear ?(Apologies if you've mentioned this earlier ) My own experiences have taught me that when using a Bi-pod especially the Harris 9-13 then it has to be has short as possible .............on one occasion due to the lie of the land I had to extend this harris out almost full and my 100yds groups opened up ,by switching to my S25C (12-27) which is more rigid they tightened up again Ive, I know what you mean about how or where you rest your rifle, I once went up to Yorkshire to help one of Lord Darby’s keepers who was having trouble with his rifle, he had a new remmy .223 and couldn't get a 100 yard group better than 4 inches! When I got there he took me to his flat garage roof and said right watch this, as I stood on the roof I could feel the ply wood/felt flat roof flexing under my feet, he shot and as he pulled the trigger I watched as the Harris bipod leapt 4 inches off the roof each time he shoot, after 5 shots he said “see look at thatâ€. I said lets have a look at that gun in the workshop. We got off the roof and went into the garage and I took the gun apart there was nothing I could see was wrong so we put it back together and I took him to the field next to the garage and said watch this I took the gun and laid on the floor and shot a sub 1 inch group. Well he thought I was God but all that was wrong was his chosen shooting/zeroing place. Sorry for diversing, but throughout these tests I have shot from the back of my Land Rover Hi Cap pick-up, I stand in the back and shot off my roof rack, which is a large piece of 18mm ply supported by 2 thick roof bars, my rifle rests on a front sand bag (a large uncle bucks) and the rear of the gun rests either on my hand or a smaller sand bag or my coat. I do admit that a better base for shooting could be had ie lying on the ground with a sand bag but I have tried to use the same method as I would use when out lamping. My roof shooting method should still give under 1-inch groups if the load/gun/shooter is capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 . Sorry for diversing, but throughout these tests I have shot from the back of my Land Rover Hi Cap pick-up, I stand in the back and shot off my roof rack, which is a large piece of 18mm ply supported by 2 thick roof bars, my rifle rests on a front sand bag (a large uncle bucks) and the rear of the gun rests either on my hand or a smaller sand bag or my coat. I do admit that a better base for shooting could be had ie lying on the ground with a sand bag but I have tried to use the same method as I would use when out lamping. My roof shooting method should still give under 1-inch groups if the load/gun/shooter is capable. I would say and agree that sounds like a solid firing point ............I would however be tempted to try prone and take my self out of the equation just to prove the set up without human error ,then after this was acheived (Hopefully ) I would adapt my in the field posistion of shooting knowing that if the groups have opened up then it's myself and not the rifle ...............At the end of the day Ballie it's a dead fox looking at them groups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted February 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ive, very good point, once I have got my home laods sorted (I am waiting for my fac to get back from police with .17hmr on, and I need the fac to buy the 70 g Noz-Bt bullets) I will re-zero with home loads from LandRover then I will try laying prone just to see how much tighter the groups are. I will post back with targets in a couple of weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 once I have got my home laods sorted PM Miffy .............He has the same .243 rifle and some cracking homeload formula's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ballie, what cleaning method did you use? By the way, im glad you got your problem sorted, their is some good men on here. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted February 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ballie, what cleaning method did you use? By the way, im glad you got your problem sorted, their is some good men on here. Frank. I always use a bore guide, I put 3 patches soaked in Shooters Choice MC7 or Hoopers bench rest no9, I then leave it for 5 minutes, I then put 3 clean dry patches though, then another 3 with S/C or HB9, then I use a bronze brush for about 20 push/pulls then another 3 clean dry patches, then another 3 soaked in cleaner, then a few dry patches, by this time the dry patches normally come out clean so I then put 3 more patches though soaked in mentholated spirit followed by 3 clean dry patches. I do not use any oil at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ballie, what cleaning method did you use? By the way, im glad you got your problem sorted, their is some good men on here. Frank. I always use a bore guide, I put 3 patches soaked in Shooters Choice MC7 or Hoopers bench rest no9, I then leave it for 5 minutes, I then put 3 clean dry patches though, then another 3 with S/C or HB9, then I use a bronze brush for about 20 push/pulls then another 3 clean dry patches, then another 3 soaked in cleaner, then a few dry patches, by this time the dry patches normally come out clean so I then put 3 more patches though soaked in mentholated spirit followed by 3 clean dry patches. I do not use any oil at all. Sounds alright to me, infact, thats the way to do it, as far as im concerned. One thing, if the rifle is not been used for more then 2 days, slightly oil a patch and push it threw after cleaning, as rust will build up. All the best, Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Right guys I am VERY PLEASED TO SAY that having now removed the mod and cleaned the rifle several times, it always has the same zero after cleaning. I am still waiting to get some home loads sorted and when I do I will post a new topic as this one has become a very long one. Here is a target I shoot this morning, no wind, federal v-shock 70g noz bt, each shot was from a cold barrel. As you can see I shot 3 bullets at 100 and 1 bullet at 150, 200 and 250 just to see how much drop I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kip270 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Will be nice to see the difference with the home loads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Ballie. This is very interesting debate. You will note I have just posted to ask questions on Tikka T3 stocks. I have a .222 Stery ro-Hunter Mounting M11. I have a ART8 on it and some time I need to set zero too. Last Saturday at the range My groups at 100mtrs were everywhere; 2-3" in it at times. I couldn't work it out at all. I got a 1" group without the Mod. I ask a guy who trained others. He seem to get better groups than me. So there a 4 things I am working on at present: 1. He thought it was my breathing, the groups are vertical that is a breathing problem most likely. If the spread is horizontal most likely a trigger pull issue. 2. My foreend is cra* and can be pushed to the barrel. When my rifle mate was shooting I noted a lot of vibration on the barrel so the barrel may be touching, the mod pushing it down. The stock will need reiforcing or a better stock fitted. 3. I also was resting the butt on a sand bag on Saturday to get the gun well ankored down and steady. This in not my usual style. I think this had a big bit to play. When My rifle mate got me to use it my normal way, my group improved. At the next detail was moving to 200mtrs I packed up and came home. So next time I will work more on this. 4. Final note. do clean out the barrel well before firing that first shot, it could also cause a bulge in the barrel from the extra presure if you don't. Godd Luck. If you have any thoughts on my post throw them in. BD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Ballie. This is very interesting debate. You will note I have just posted to ask questions on Tikka T3 stocks. I have a .222 Stery ro-Hunter Mounting M11. I have a ART8 on it and some time I need to set zero too. Last Saturday at the range My groups at 100mtrs were everywhere; 2-3" in it at times. I couldn't work it out at all. I got a 1" group without the Mod. I ask a guy who trained others. He seem to get better groups than me. So there a 4 things I am working on at present: BD It certainly looks like the additional weight is creating a thing called stock hammer .....eg,clearence one second and then the harmonics created by a fired round causing the stock and barrel to interact Is your particular rifle the lightweight model.? Here is my reponse earlier to this thread in case you missed it Along time ago I posted the exact same senario ...........My rifle is is the older 595 ,S/B 8 x 56 and T8 so a very similar set up apart from mine is wood and blue . How many rounds are you firing in a Hour ?..........Because if your on the range and removing the mod and refitting then extreme barrel temperatures won't help with consistancy as you probably already know . Are you removing the T8, cleaning,refitting and then having this problem ?.............If so ....... Never heard of a crush ring but the rear bush on mine has lightly removed some of the barrel blueing indicating a perfect fit . The mod is recommended to be removed to allow the condense to evaporate ..........It is also reccomended that you spray WD40 down it ..........I don't has this throws the first shots off zero (If you are vigorous with it )but I store the mod in a sock with silicon sachets . Cleaning can upset a rifles consistancy .............Allow me to explain has I went through the dilemna your going through . I too use a bore guide but if I use a bronze brush then the first few shots are off zero . If I lightly oil the rifling and follow through with a clean patch afterwards then this action causes unpredictablity in the first shots . My conclusion for regular maintenance is NEVER use a bronze brush and oil the rifling ......Only jag and patches and Butches bore shine ............As a result my very first shots through a clean barrel are always on the nail now has some of the lads on here will confirm . Another thing I had to do Ballie was remove some material from the barrel channel has the weight of the T8 caused my previous floating barrel to touch the stock . Hope this is of some use . Ps .........leaving oil in the rifling causes extreme pressures when a round is fired ..........it can't be removed by dry patches and a jag either .........A solvent or degreaser has to be applied . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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