aussie black duck

In case it helps anyone, here is a link to Winchester USA's 14th (1994)edition reloading data booklet in PDF form: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/83a8mbihricw7wtbq6zau/Winchester-Reloading-Booklet-14-edition.pdf?rlkey=xga0yxivw3aiwki51gszrlamh&dl=0

If the Winchester AA shells sold on the UK were in the compression formed cases, they would have been loaded with a version of Winchesters Ball Powders. Factory loads were possibly blended commercial Powders, which may or may not be the same as their retail packaged powders, but probably more likely so in this case. Here is the data published by Winchester Australia for reloads in the 1970's. As far as I know, the powders listed in this chart are not commercially available anymore. I also have later data if you have later Ball powders like WST etc. Personally, I used very little of these powders. I used the Nobels 60 and 80 series mostly. But most Australian reloaders used the CF cases sold by Winchester Australia, and also used by IMI (Eley) Australia. 🙂 Some CF cases were also loaded under the Browning brand name by Winchester Australia. Note: The velocities and pressures are in accordance with SAAMI specification test procedures and it would be very unwise to substitute ANY of the listed components. Sorry for the poor quality of the scan. It was in a very old file. 🙂 I might add: I too have a few thousand of those old AA cases in 12G and 20G, and a few in 28G and 410 ,most in excellent condition that I am still loading my Skeet practice loads with.

Is it possible to share that with us? I would love to read what they said back then. Cheers, ABD

Yes, still load a bit, but mainly only in small gauge or subsonic these days. Not even close to worth it for 12G Clay shooting or hunting (except sub-sonics). Because of this I am still working my way through those old tins of N64 for 20G skeet and field loads from the original post. That powder must be getting closer to 40 years old now and still no sign of deterioration or loss of performance! Powder and primer prices have gone through the roof, but Lead shot is the killer. If I could be bothered making my own shot from scrap lead it would still be economical to reload, at least for skeet.

I just noticed my previously posted pictures have gone with the demise of the free image shack. Here is the photo again of the Nobel 60 tin load data from the Australian packaging: Nobel 80 series data from a tin:

Hi Cookoff. Have you got any recipies for subsonic 20g? Preferably with 28 or 30 grams of shot, and preferably with Vectan powders and plastic wads which I have available. Regarding the above: Have you seen any chonograph figures comparing Hushpower gun with non moderated barrels? Cheers, ABD

Since it is impossible for me to compare, can anyone who has heard a Swingtrap in use tell me how it compares to other moderated shotguns in sound level? Particulary interested in how it compares to moderated U/O and Mossberg 12g Pump. (subsonic ammo used of course). The Swingtrap was imported and sold here quite leagally as a reduced recoil gun. It is the only thing close to a moderated shotgun that is legal here for normal people. Cheers. ADB

see this thread where I posted data from the Australian importers powder containers for Nobel 60 series and Nobel 80 series. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/180604-nobel-60-powder-reloading-data/

Thanks for that link! Can you paste the URL of the page that it links from please. I can't find it on their website. :look:

Data here for use with Gualandi Plastic wads: http://www.gualandi.it/TabCariche/POLVERI_CARICAMENTO.htm Click on the powder links at the bottom of the page. (Note that 'AO' just looks like 'A' in the tab at the bottom of the page) eg:12g 76mm case, Medium strength primer (FIOCCHI 615, CHEDDITE CX1000, MARTIGNONI U.686, WINCHESTER 209), Star crimp, 1.90 grams powder (29.3 grains), Super G wad, 48/50 grams shot. Please Note: My experience suggests these to be max loads because others I have tried were quite hot. I would try a grain or two lower.

Oops! Actually, no worries. We are allowed to properly store up to 20 KG in a 'small scale storage'. More than that and you have to store the rest in another place I guess. Don't worry, I will use most of it up within a year or two. The N60/62/80/82 in 12 gauge trap and field cartridges and the N64/84 in 20 gauge, mostly on skeet. I have emptied at least 4 or 5 other tins of old powder in the last couple of years.

Had a rush of blood to the head today and decided to share this since I have not found any other data for old Nobel Powders on the net. First here is my current stash: Most of these are full or nearly full. Some still sealed. Here is a pic of the old square 5lb tins. I recon these would have to be 30+ years old. I have been working through the N60 tin in this photo for my trapshooting with great results. The two N64 tins are still factory sealed! Here is that data printed on the back of the tins: Note: The 60 series data was developed for Winchester compression formed hulls which is what ICI/IMI/Eley Australia loaded under their own brand name, and which 99.9% of re-loaders used in the 70's and 80's(Either Eley or Winchester hulls). Also note that the Eley primer listed is a very mild primer but most reloaders used Vihtavuori, CCI or Winchester primers which were hotter but all about the same as each other. The velocities listed are actually 3 foot measured velocities. The 'monowad' was very similar in performance to the Winchester AA wads and also interchanged at will by many. For straight walled cases, IMI had been known to recommend upping the powder charge by 1 grain. Here is the data from the 80 series tins: Note: The primer is the Vihtavuori which was considered interchangeable with the Win 209 and CCI 209 (and also Fiocchi 616 and NS 686). You will also note that the way the velocities are quoted changed to the UK common way of trying to calculate back to an estimated muzzle velocity (A nonsense if you ask me) and are very optinistic if compared with the older data by about 150fps! I hope this is interesting to someone and helps if anyone comes across some old powder in good condition.

Is there any official body in the UK who is responsible for the shot size standards we call English Shot size? Seems to me it should be a very easy thing to look up..........

Fair enough. I should have pointed this out first then: http://www.gualandi.it/TabCariche/POLVERI_CARICAMENTO.htm Gualandi data for a wide range of powders and gauges. Click on your powder of choice along the bottom of the page to see the data. There is a 20 gauge load listed here with 24-25 grams lead shot. A warning though. My limited experience with some loads from this site lead me to believe that the listed data is MAXIMUM loads. I would back it off a bit, to start at least. :blink: It should then work well with 21 grams of shot.

Re-loading has been on the wane here in Oz for the past 20 years and has really dropped off in the last 7-8 years as the cost savings became very marginal. Components have continued to rise in price but shop bought cartridges have hardly risen to the point where a case of 500 12g Trap/Skeet shells can he had for less than A$130. Reloading with components bought in a store can run out significantly higher than that. Even using the cheapest sources and buying in bulk my component costs work out around A$110 per 500. Every now and then I come across one time re-loaders who have long ago given up and want to get rid of their left over stuff. I am happy to take it off their hands. On top of that, the owner of the local sports store is a good friend and when he gets old stuff brought in he often gives me a call. For example, I recently had a gentleman offer me a Mec 600jr loader in good condition. I didn't really need another one (having three already set up for small gauge and using a pair of Mec 650's for 12g and 20g) but the offer came with two big plastic rubbish bags full of wads and 2 and a half 2kg tins of old Nobel powder. For $60 how could I go wrong? Last year a guy offered me 13,000 Vihtavuori shotgun primers at a not to be refused price with 2 full, sealed tins of Nobel 64 and one of Nobel 60 thrown in. There are the old Square tins that were replaced on the market by a rectangular tin about 30 years ago, just before the 80 series of powders were introduced here in the early 80's! (I also have a few tins of the 80 series tucked away!) Of course, reloading still has some significant advantages for me: - I can make the shell I want which I can not readily buy (12g 3/4oz for Skeet practice and Low recoil 1150 fps Trap competition shells) - Small gauge ammo is still very expensive so I can re-load that at considerable savings. - I make Sub-sonic field loads for less obtrusive pest control. - When I can pick up old cheap powder, wads and primers as mentioned, I can save heaps and shoot much more.