aussie black duck

In case it helps anyone, here is a link to Winchester USA's 14th (1994)edition reloading data booklet in PDF form: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/83a8mbihricw7wtbq6zau/Winchester-Reloading-Booklet-14-edition.pdf?rlkey=xga0yxivw3aiwki51gszrlamh&dl=0

If the Winchester AA shells sold on the UK were in the compression formed cases, they would have been loaded with a version of Winchesters Ball Powders. Factory loads were possibly blended commercial Powders, which may or may not be the same as their retail packaged powders, but probably more likely so in this case. Here is the data published by Winchester Australia for reloads in the 1970's. As far as I know, the powders listed in this chart are not commercially available anymore. I also have later data if you have later Ball powders like WST etc. Personally, I used very little of these powders. I used the Nobels 60 and 80 series mostly. But most Australian reloaders used the CF cases sold by Winchester Australia, and also used by IMI (Eley) Australia. 🙂 Some CF cases were also loaded under the Browning brand name by Winchester Australia. Note: The velocities and pressures are in accordance with SAAMI specification test procedures and it would be very unwise to substitute ANY of the listed components. Sorry for the poor quality of the scan. It was in a very old file. 🙂 I might add: I too have a few thousand of those old AA cases in 12G and 20G, and a few in 28G and 410 ,most in excellent condition that I am still loading my Skeet practice loads with.

Is it possible to share that with us? I would love to read what they said back then. Cheers, ABD

Yes, still load a bit, but mainly only in small gauge or subsonic these days. Not even close to worth it for 12G Clay shooting or hunting (except sub-sonics). Because of this I am still working my way through those old tins of N64 for 20G skeet and field loads from the original post. That powder must be getting closer to 40 years old now and still no sign of deterioration or loss of performance! Powder and primer prices have gone through the roof, but Lead shot is the killer. If I could be bothered making my own shot from scrap lead it would still be economical to reload, at least for skeet.

I just noticed my previously posted pictures have gone with the demise of the free image shack. Here is the photo again of the Nobel 60 tin load data from the Australian packaging: Nobel 80 series data from a tin:

Hi Cookoff. Have you got any recipies for subsonic 20g? Preferably with 28 or 30 grams of shot, and preferably with Vectan powders and plastic wads which I have available. Regarding the above: Have you seen any chonograph figures comparing Hushpower gun with non moderated barrels? Cheers, ABD

Since it is impossible for me to compare, can anyone who has heard a Swingtrap in use tell me how it compares to other moderated shotguns in sound level? Particulary interested in how it compares to moderated U/O and Mossberg 12g Pump. (subsonic ammo used of course). The Swingtrap was imported and sold here quite leagally as a reduced recoil gun. It is the only thing close to a moderated shotgun that is legal here for normal people. Cheers. ADB

see this thread where I posted data from the Australian importers powder containers for Nobel 60 series and Nobel 80 series. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/180604-nobel-60-powder-reloading-data/

Thanks for that link! Can you paste the URL of the page that it links from please. I can't find it on their website. :look:

Data here for use with Gualandi Plastic wads: http://www.gualandi.it/TabCariche/POLVERI_CARICAMENTO.htm Click on the powder links at the bottom of the page. (Note that 'AO' just looks like 'A' in the tab at the bottom of the page) eg:12g 76mm case, Medium strength primer (FIOCCHI 615, CHEDDITE CX1000, MARTIGNONI U.686, WINCHESTER 209), Star crimp, 1.90 grams powder (29.3 grains), Super G wad, 48/50 grams shot. Please Note: My experience suggests these to be max loads because others I have tried were quite hot. I would try a grain or two lower.

Oops! Actually, no worries. We are allowed to properly store up to 20 KG in a 'small scale storage'. More than that and you have to store the rest in another place I guess. Don't worry, I will use most of it up within a year or two. The N60/62/80/82 in 12 gauge trap and field cartridges and the N64/84 in 20 gauge, mostly on skeet. I have emptied at least 4 or 5 other tins of old powder in the last couple of years.

Had a rush of blood to the head today and decided to share this since I have not found any other data for old Nobel Powders on the net. First here is my current stash: Most of these are full or nearly full. Some still sealed. Here is a pic of the old square 5lb tins. I recon these would have to be 30+ years old. I have been working through the N60 tin in this photo for my trapshooting with great results. The two N64 tins are still factory sealed! Here is that data printed on the back of the tins: Note: The 60 series data was developed for Winchester compression formed hulls which is what ICI/IMI/Eley Australia loaded under their own brand name, and which 99.9% of re-loaders used in the 70's and 80's(Either Eley or Winchester hulls). Also note that the Eley primer listed is a very mild primer but most reloaders used Vihtavuori, CCI or Winchester primers which were hotter but all about the same as each other. The velocities listed are actually 3 foot measured velocities. The 'monowad' was very similar in performance to the Winchester AA wads and also interchanged at will by many. For straight walled cases, IMI had been known to recommend upping the powder charge by 1 grain. Here is the data from the 80 series tins: Note: The primer is the Vihtavuori which was considered interchangeable with the Win 209 and CCI 209 (and also Fiocchi 616 and NS 686). You will also note that the way the velocities are quoted changed to the UK common way of trying to calculate back to an estimated muzzle velocity (A nonsense if you ask me) and are very optinistic if compared with the older data by about 150fps! I hope this is interesting to someone and helps if anyone comes across some old powder in good condition.

Is there any official body in the UK who is responsible for the shot size standards we call English Shot size? Seems to me it should be a very easy thing to look up..........

Fair enough. I should have pointed this out first then: http://www.gualandi.it/TabCariche/POLVERI_CARICAMENTO.htm Gualandi data for a wide range of powders and gauges. Click on your powder of choice along the bottom of the page to see the data. There is a 20 gauge load listed here with 24-25 grams lead shot. A warning though. My limited experience with some loads from this site lead me to believe that the listed data is MAXIMUM loads. I would back it off a bit, to start at least. :blink: It should then work well with 21 grams of shot.

Re-loading has been on the wane here in Oz for the past 20 years and has really dropped off in the last 7-8 years as the cost savings became very marginal. Components have continued to rise in price but shop bought cartridges have hardly risen to the point where a case of 500 12g Trap/Skeet shells can he had for less than A$130. Reloading with components bought in a store can run out significantly higher than that. Even using the cheapest sources and buying in bulk my component costs work out around A$110 per 500. Every now and then I come across one time re-loaders who have long ago given up and want to get rid of their left over stuff. I am happy to take it off their hands. On top of that, the owner of the local sports store is a good friend and when he gets old stuff brought in he often gives me a call. For example, I recently had a gentleman offer me a Mec 600jr loader in good condition. I didn't really need another one (having three already set up for small gauge and using a pair of Mec 650's for 12g and 20g) but the offer came with two big plastic rubbish bags full of wads and 2 and a half 2kg tins of old Nobel powder. For $60 how could I go wrong? Last year a guy offered me 13,000 Vihtavuori shotgun primers at a not to be refused price with 2 full, sealed tins of Nobel 64 and one of Nobel 60 thrown in. There are the old Square tins that were replaced on the market by a rectangular tin about 30 years ago, just before the 80 series of powders were introduced here in the early 80's! (I also have a few tins of the 80 series tucked away!) Of course, reloading still has some significant advantages for me: - I can make the shell I want which I can not readily buy (12g 3/4oz for Skeet practice and Low recoil 1150 fps Trap competition shells) - Small gauge ammo is still very expensive so I can re-load that at considerable savings. - I make Sub-sonic field loads for less obtrusive pest control. - When I can pick up old cheap powder, wads and primers as mentioned, I can save heaps and shoot much more.

Hmmmm, my shot comparison charts tell me that US #7-1/2 equals UK #7 US #7.5 = 0.095" diam. = 2.41mm UK # 7 = 0.095" diam. = 2.41mm US # 7 = 0.1" diam. = 2.54mm UK # 6 = 0.1" diam = 2.54mm Most Euro (and now Aussie) manufacturers now use the US shot sizes (in our market at least) I guess that would make US #6.5 = 0.975" = 2.4765mm ?? :blink: Just shoot it.

I have loaded thousands of 3/4 oz/21 gram loads for 20 gauge (and 12 gauge too for that matter). As a general rule, any data listed for a 24 gram load in that gauge that uses a reasonably fast powder will be fine to just use 21 grams of lead with otherwise the same components. You may need a slightly longer wad. 21 gram loads of small shot are every bit as effective as 24 gram loads on small game or clays inside 30 yards. If you have access to other brands of powder, there is a lot of 21gram/3/4oz data here: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp It is only for Winchester and Remington hulls but if you use the 7/8oz/24 gram data for other hulls you will get good loads but I suggest using the faster powders like Hodgdon International (ADI AS50N) or Hodgdon Universal (ADI AP70N which is what I use), and avoid Longshot unless you prefer hyper velocity loads.

Hoping someone here can help me with some data for this obsolete old powder. I have about 7 kilos of it and have been using it for 12 gauge 36 gram field loads and 20 gauge 24 gram skeet loads for which I have data printed on the original containers. (Works well! ) I would like to load 1oz in 20 gauge Federal Top Gun cases (or Fiocchi/Cheddite etc) for Bunny hunting but don't have any data. Anyone able to help me out?

I have been using the following with 30 year old Nobel 60 with good results at Trap and skeet. 1oz (28 gram)lead shot (#7.5) Fiocchi low basewad case. B&P plastic trap wad Fiocchi 616 primer 20.5 grains Nobel 60 Powder. Estimated at about 1150 fps @ 3foot. Reliable and consistent in Aussie spring and summer weather temperatures. A tiny bit more muzzle 'smoke' than modern powders. For Handicap and Rabbit shooting I have been using: 1-1/8th (32 gram) lead shot (7.5 for trap - #4's for bunnies) Same components as above but with 19.5 grains of Nobel 60. Clean and effective but probably only about 1100 FPS @ 3ft velocity. If anyone has any data from Nobel 64 for Twenty Gauge and 1oz of shot in straight walled (Federal, Fiocchi, Cheddite etc) case I would very much appreciate it.

This may be a bit too late but here goes: I too have received quite a few Kilos of old Nobel 60, 62 and 64 powders. Some of it is more than 30 years old and so far I have found nothing at all wrong with it from a deterioration point of view. I have loaded hundreds of trap shell with the 60 in recent weeks and apart from producing slightly more muzzle smoke than modern powders, it works just fine. Max loads in Winchester CF cases with 1-1/8th oz shot is listed on the tins as 23.5 grains with IMI Australia (or Win AA) wads with mild primers (the old Eley/ICI primer). I have had good results with Fiocchi Case, B&P wad, Fiocchi 616 primer, 1oz shot and 20.5 grains of N60 powder. :-) If it smells OK, USE IT!

Lead shot in the UK seems to be similar in cost to what it is here in Australia. Just a few years ago I could buy very high quality (3-4% Antimony) Lead tower shot at Aus$15-20 for 10 kilos. Yesterday I was quoted Aus$60 for the same amount. :( Lead shot is now by far the most expensive component for reloading and for target cartridges bought by the 500 case (up to #7 British size) it is not cost effective to reload. For specialist field loads and 1-1/8oz. sporting loads it is often quite a bit cheaper to reload as a case of 1-1/8oz or 1-1/4oz cartridges can cost up to double what 1oz target shells cost here. I recently discovered a handy reloading cost calculator on the web. It is authored by an American so the values are in Dollars and Pounds weight but I think if you just enter Pounds and Pence and ignore the $ symbol might will work with a bit of creative arithmetic. Try it here: http://10xshooters.com/calculators/ShotshellReloadingCost/