denniswebb

I am surprised at matty's view being ex forces, the freedom that we enjoy today to wander almost at will will end, unless this sport gets to grip with this now. The day will come when all guns will have to be kept in shooting ground armies, yes you will be allowed to check out your gun to shoot another ground or event, but your time with it will be limited and the gun will have to be returned when you have finished. Game shooters will be treated differently but only slightly, method statements and notification will be the norm, the wearing of camo gear will be kept strictly for the hunting scene.....There has to be some order now and that means we get our act together, join our relevant governing bodies, there is no choice. you will see a marked reduction of gun licence renewals over the next few years, we all know that process cannot be reversed....The police do not want guns of any discription where the general public has access.......Just look at the Hillsbourgh situation, the police will go to any dishonest lengths to hide facts and prevent the truth showing them as incompedant, no one will lose pensions or be reprimanded, its not seen as good for their image.......This sport needs to manage its own affairs, the public need to know that we are safe and those taking part are responsible adults and fit , as shown by recent events, the police are not capable enough. Dennis

Yippeeeeeeee we have 2 votes now. Dennis

Some of you may get Pull magazine this month, 'It Will never happen to me' the legal expert has been running an article on the problems with licence applications and refusals.....I will quote a few from that , a young man gets refused his application on the grounds that a remote associate has a criminal record , licence refused.....A shooter of 40 year unblemished record had his guns siezed because he was burglered, the thieves could not break open the safe, they were siezed by the police because the thieves knew the location of the gun safe and would re-visit with better tooling. Do not be complacent , if these are what has come to the attention and you have to say the CPSA represent around 25 % of the clayshooters in this country, how many do not bother , it must be worse for BASC , This may not be the right format to go forward for consultation but we need to investigate the best way forward, The police treat us like a bunch of cowboys and some remarks on these forums only reinforce that view. We have to draw up a common policy that is used as the blueprint for this sport, we have to stand together and not fragment into self interested splinter groups. I am away in Wales for the next week representing England in the Home Internationals, be in touch when i get back. Dennis Webb

Our shooting bodies want to get this standardised as a requirement but the police don't reconise them as part of the system, You think the police and the Home Office would be all for the shooting bodies being involved as a prerequsite to obtaining a gun licence, it appears almost by design. Whatever your views things have to change, our shooting bodies have to get more involved in this process, they are the ones that have there fingers on the pulse of the sport.

I don't think you could ever omit the police from some form of process in the administration of gun licences, they tend to use retired officers who may have an interest in shooting. Perhaps there should have been a wider consulation before drawing this up, but i am not sure who. There is a long way to go on this, it may be that some of the aims get taken on board, reading some of these posts i don't think it will be well supported by shooters, but it may get better support from the general public. I think everyone really agrees that we need a form of provisional training and certification before letting someone loose with a firearm. I think we all want to see a wider consulation to involve our national bodies in the Licencing process. Where this all falls flat on its face is compulsary membership to one of the national shooting organisation, its really about money, go out and spend a small fortune on a gun and cartridges, but £30.00 on membership is the end of the road. Its as simple as that. What impressed me going on the Countryside March is the camaradie between sportsman and women, why is it we don't get that same feeling in shooting, in the end it will finish this sport, fragmentation will be our downfall. Dennis

The Building industry is not like any other buisness, the prison system train ex inmates to be plumbers, bricklayers, electricians. We don't get a CV from HM prisons, we know little about who we employ, its not until the tell tale signs appear that you find out there past. I have found out in the past that i have employed 3 people that have served time for murder and manslaugther.....The prison system don't turn out stock brokers, underwriters, doctors and dentist, but looking at our banking system maybe they do. As for clubs, i was at a shoot a few weeks ago and a guy was there who 15 years ago stuck one on a women Ref , he knocked her out and broke her nose, the police were called and stated that it served no purpose for the sport if it went further, so they went, we thought then that we would deal with this in house, the region committee decided there wasn't enough direct evidence to ban him from the sport. Some shooters at the time gave evidence to an offical only to withdraw it later. Dennis

Hopefully the crown prosecution won't charge, but it looks as if they were shot outside the house, bacause as we all know shoot someone at 20ft don't walk away. If that is the case even if they were shot in the front he will still be prosecuted. And no doubt the criminals will sue for injuries sustained whilst in pursuit of the trade.....It is unlawful to gun someone down, fire a warning shot mabe, then shoot if they still approach, but we are talking as if the situation was calm and collected, in the dark, a rush of addrellion anything can happen. I have been attacked and then saw the other guy on the floor and wondered what happened you are in shock.

Some years ago i wrote a marriage guidance for the clayshooter for Pull magazine, it tackles most of the points raised on here about buying a new gun and dealing with domestic bliss. Dennis

Isn't that the idea of this E-Petition to get the licensing away for the police. I never had my SGC revoked, in reality i am surprised i have had my gun licence so long, its always been a struggle to keep on the right side of things...At times in the past my buisness has been difficult, i am not one of the persons that can back down from a situation. Building has always confrontational and sometimes it can be diffuclt to keep your cool.

If in the case of Dunblane, had the gun club had been empowered to reccomend withdrawal of Hamiltons licence, the police would have had to act. The Licence would had been revoked subject to appeal through channels. It would have changed the outcome. Unfortunatly as we all know there are some people in this sport that own guns and have no use for them other than the kudos factor...There was those elements with handguns, when i used to belong to a pistol club. I don't want these people in this sport, There is an element drawn to gun ownership as a power trip. I firmly believe that our national bodies have a better understanding of the sport than the police and are better placed to act .

Unfortunatly living in the country ain't that safe no more, there isn't the local police, most have been withdrawn to more populated areas, that is what has happened in our area. Criminals are more aggressive and the fact that they were 4 handed shows they were after something big to nick, i don't know if they were going to break into the house or steal some farming equipment, but you just have to have some form of protection, in a remote area alarms are no good you have to have dogs or something handy. My mate shot a pikie who was hiding in the shadows of a barn, but the idiot was smoking a fag, he shot the fag and peppered him, the pikie phoned the police and he said he thought it was a fox, the copper said what smoking a fag, he said he thought foxes had red eyes. He still has his guns, i suspect they where shot outside the house on the farm, if so he will be in trouble, the system doesn't like people taking the law into there own hands . Dennis

The Pistol ban was a direct result of what happened at Dunblane, It was this failure of communications between the local gun club and the police that had tragic results. If there had been better links this tragic outcame may have just been avoided......Legislation may not have changed since Cumbria but the police procedure has. Dennis

Most attempted changes seem futile in this sport Andy, and i have a long history of failures, but that doesn't stop me trying to get changes made because some succeed, i tend to agree with you Andy, it would have to be 100,000 not the prescribed 10,000 that is the starting post, but this one does cater for all sides and should get support because its seen as a possitive move forward, many on here won't agree, but i think all of us know that unless we try to get our act together someone else will be doing it for us and then its end game. Dennis

I am afraid we are second class citizen, we aren't afforded the same rights as everyone, we are treated differently by the establishment. As i have found out to my cost, espically since the incident up near the Lake District, he was a gun licence holder and used a shotgun and a firearm. Dennis

Recently we have had a fair few licence holders go off the rails in recent years, that is what has changed this sport, you may not think so but it has, the police now do not trust shooters. Our freedoms to roam and shoot as we had in the past are gone for the time being, if a member of the public phones up and reports someone prowling around with a gun, its more likely now that an arm response unit will turn up to investigate, there is a great deal of distrust now, somehow we have to get things back on track, shooting has to have a working relationship with both the police and government agencies. This is an attempt to restore that trust. Dennis

Most other countries have simalar systems, in France its compulsary. At this time we don't have a voice when laws are brought in that change our sport. Our shooting bodies have tried and failed . I firmly believe that every shooter has to belong to a national shooting body, has to have third party insurance and be competant in the use of handling and shooting guns. For there part our national shooting bodies have to change to meet the new demands that will be placed on them...I firmly belive that if we put our own house in order then we will be more self regulating. Dennis

As someone that has had negative dealing with the police in recent times. What has really concerned me is the lack of understanding and the heavy handedness of the police when dealing with someone that is a clayshooter, I fear that unless there is real change then it’s a slippery slope. There has to be a better understanding and cooperation between the police and the shooting bodies. I also think that the time has come for every shooter that is in our sport to belong to one of the national shooting bodies and these bodies to be directly involved in the training and licencing system, for that shooter as a pre condition takes a competence test armed with that certificate to go forward to make full application for a gun licence. Our national bodies have already tried and failed to get involved in the licencing process, but if enough shooters and members of the public sign this petition then it will go forward for consideration. Please sign this petition. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38006 Dennis Webb

What you are all forgetting is as in the eyes of the police we are all potential armed criminals, we are not subject to the same laws as every other citizen in this country, special secret inteligence is kept on every licence holder, we may go through the motion of filling in a renewal form for public consumption, but in the real world that counts for little, if there is enough cumalitive evidence to support refusal they will refuse the licence, then its a case of making application to the courts......It doesn't just rely on convictions. I'm sure there are plenty of grey areas on the application form to reccomend refusal....When my licence was revoked i had to go before a meeting with an inspector and a licencing Officer to guage if i was fit to be given my guns back. ......It wasn't a forgone conclusion. Dennis

I have never had any faith in lawyers, they all seem to fanny around and just in it for the money, in my civil case after the Crown Court one, i met her in chambers and she advised me to settle it out of court. I sadi that i had been attacked and there was no way i would pay the other guy, she said as he was legally aided i could not win. She advised that i make an offer of £30,000 . I refused her advice and decided hey if he owns a taxi company and lives in a £1,000,000 house and gets legal aid, then i would give it a crack....I got legal aid, never disclosed it to the other side and went into court . At which the judge stated he would not hear a case where both parties were legally aided, case dismissed....I know its off the topic a tad, but as this is my last year in shooting so give and take a bit. Dennis

As someone that has gone through this a couple of times, firstly generally they take the guns and ammunition. David there are a few holes in the picture, if someone attacks you with there fists and you decided that you cannot defend yourself by using your fists and decide to pick up a length of wood to ward off the attacker and injure the attacker you will be charged, this happened to one of our drivers, he pulled into a scrap yard and the bosses son thought he was a thieving pikie, after e few words the other bloke attacked him, he was known as a violent person, the driver grabbed a hammer from the cab and defended himself . The driver was charged and convicted for assault. I have been in a simalar situation, if you are 18 stone and the other guy is 14 stone but he attacks you and you knock him out, but you only hit him twice, i was found not guilty after a 3 day crown court trial, it still cost me £8000 in costs ( because the laywer had not won many cases and in his excitment forgot to ask for costs) he said afterwards that they rarely win a case and in there excitment forgot. Amazingly the other person took me to civil court for damages, plastic surgery, bone grafts . It turned out that you can win a case in the Crown Court but still lose the civil actions because the level of proof is less, simply a jury will find you not guilty but a judge won't . In Essex they will take your guns away for whatever reason and make you technically reapply , that is what happened to me, the licencing officer will re examine your application . Dennis

I agree its done to death, i just think the police in my case screwed up and hopefully the officers involved will learn how to do the job properly in future.....But Robi you don't sound like an employer, if you where you would understand, i was a coxwain at 19, one of the first rescues was a coaster ran down a fishing party 4 miles off Southend on sea, 2 anglers drowned and we picked the rest, i had to cordinate an air sea rescue for 3 hours and liase with coastguards and other crafts and ships in the area . That was at 19 years old. My intensive training involved bullying people, take command of situations, do let others take charge who may be older and appear wiser. You are the man appointed in charge. You know the procedure others don't. Belive it or not the police follow a simalar procedure.....There was Health & Safety at sea long before there was ever on land. Dennis

Well sixhills , i think if i was a real bully, no one would work for me certainly not for 30 odd years and kept them all in work. I am in the construction industry, we get picked on from all quarters, if you cannot hack it get out of the game. In the RNLI i had to work with the police on many rescues, i went to there annual dinner and dance every year. I was a coxwain at the age of 19 years old, on the water you have to be a bully, i wouldn't have been a leader otherwise. there are no real niceities, if a crew don't get it right first time, you shout to get the message home. In can be the same in construction...It can become a habit . I don't have a problem generally with the police.......One of my clients is one of the biggest steel stock holders in the country and a big game shooters, he got into marriage difficulties, she made serious complaints to the police, he agreed to sign a voluntary order. They never arrested him, incarcerated him or sent in the armed response unit. So why do that to me? Why am i different, why hasn't the officer in charge been sacked or demoted, why hasn't the chief constable apoligised to me . Dennis

When you post on websites or in the press as this has been in both Pull and Clayshooting , the police read these because i went to a meeting and they produced the mag, the officer agreed with everything because he had checked it out. As someone that ran one of the biggest shooting website in the sport i know because the home officer used to inform me they would be monitoring the website for referance purposes, its the same with this website...In every medium whether its sports or our general way of life, personal freedoms and discrimination are something the government take seriously. At this meeting with this officer he was on the shooters side, he understood the heavy handed of some officers in dealing with situations such as mine. It was him that advised me to seek another County to base my gun licence in, i am fortunate in being able to afford to buy another property somewhere else to keep my shotgun......Gordon, I am an ex RNLI lifeboat coxswain ( check my record on the RNLI website) i have recieved commendations for rescues. I have been a World Champion and have shot for my country for the past 30 odd years...... What i hope to achive is that the police have a long think about how they deal with simalar situations, remember there was 4 weeks between the complaint to the police and them acting on it.....There has to be something else the police are not saying as to why they took this course of action, they would not tell me at the pace meeting. Dennis Webb

I have not recieved any offical apology, in fact since last January no response from The Police Complaints Dept . This situation came about really because the local police had been withdrawn 10 years ago. Our private village now employs private police to patrol the area. Years ago local police would have difused situations such as mine because they knew everyone in the village, its heavy handed every time now.......The risks that every manual worker in this country have to face on a daily basis in something the police will not now face...Police should be like any other buisness. Foot patrol Brixton ,armed definatly....country areas normal policing, differant pratices. They should produce a method statement for there own patch. Dennis

We all have to understand its the long term aim of the police to get rid of all guns from society, if they could do it now they would restrict all guns to be held at Shooting grounds in armouriers. Our national bodies are ineffective at defending our sport as was demonstrated the last time that shotgun licences were changed...The Olympics also showed that there was no aim to leave any long term legacy for the sport, they totally ignored our national shooting bodies. I would love to find out the statistic of gun licence applications year on year over the past 20 years and see where we are today. In my case i am sueing the police for wrongful arrest, i accept that in there view that the removal of my gun is a precautionary measure. Its my rights and rights of my family that concerns, being confronted with armed police in my house. Its that bad that i really am moving out of Essex, its not a ploy, why should i have to do this, why havn't the police apoligised to both myself and my family, reassured them that it was all a mistake, why isn't the affending officer being brought up on charges, sacked or reduced to the ranks, its clear he is not fit to be in charge of others. What i witnessed on telly with what has to be said executions, the two shootings is that it could happen to others , the police are incompetant and its that incompenance that worries me . Dennis