[Lead ban & BASC]

2 minutes ago, Dibble said:

The second problem is if you need 36g if steel to do the job of 28g of lead recoil will increase in lightweight guns.

As I have said, I think those choosing to use light 2 1/2" steel loads will have to be realistic about effective maximum range.  No bad thing in my view in theory.  Knowing at what range your gun/cartridge combination is effective is part of what all responsible live quarry shots should know.  My guess is that 28g of No 4 steel will be OK at the ranges that apply for the vast majority of shots in 'normal' shoots.

For those that believe that shooting extreme ranges of 60, 70 and more yards is OK, - they will have to see if they can find a suitable gun/cartridge combination that can produce a 'killing pattern and energy' at the ranges concerned.  Personally I have no interest in that area and lack the ability to shoot sufficiently well to feel I am being sporting at long ranges.

 

[Lead ban & BASC]

1 hour ago, roughshooter said:

revoke the lead ban for wild Fowler's and everyone use fibrewads for everything 

Whilst that makes a lot of sense, it isn't going to happen, not least because our organisations have "made their statements" and made it clear that they (now in a change of opinion as far as I can tell) favour a lead ban.  Many shoots have already operated a voluntary plastic ban for wads and collect policy for cases which has worked pretty well.  I suspect it was a bit weak in the 'recycling' area, but that would have been easy to put right.

[Lead ban & BASC]

2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

A significant irony in all of this is that there’s been a concerted move driven from shooters themselves to move away from plastic. 
This would have perhaps been the right step to make  ... 

Many (most?) shoots have and are doing that and have for years.  I ran quite a large shoot way back from the mid 1980's through to about early 2000's.  We mandated fibre wads (no exceptions) and always picked up cases.  We knew way back then that wads were a problem.  Our landlords had livestock and insisted that there were NO plastic wads about.  We occasionally had people claiming that their expensive pride and joy didn't pattern properly with fibre etc.  As one regular gun and big fibre supporter remarked to one such - well get a decent gun then!  Fibre may not pattern quite as tightly, but I have seen some very good shooting done all with fibre.

[Lead ban & BASC]

Just now, Old farrier said:

If the shoot you’re attending for your driven day sells the game to a dealer will he want 1/2 shot with lead and half shot with non toxic ?

OK - we don't shoot enough to use a dealer.  I think more fibre wads/cups will inevitability become available - and I had heard that 2 3/4" was 'possible', but that 2 1/2" was more difficult, but so far - that is hearsay only.

 

[Lead ban & BASC]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Early days yet.

So much this /\

It has been one week; we have 260 weeks until a 'voluntary' ban starts.  I and many others on this thread have indicated that we will evaluate alternatives as and when the become available.  I believe firmly that the will become available, but how effective they will be - and how expensive remains to be seen.  I do have reservations about effectiveness, but suspect that they will be adequate for me - even if I have to be a little more conservative in 'stretching my barrels'. 

In many ways - that would be no bad thing and should instil a better sense of sportsmanship in being more restrained where a clean kill becomes doubtful.  I have always thought that was a good attitude to take anyway.

[Lead ban & BASC]

19 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or by this season unless you’re going to shoot game with a 3 inch chambered gun 

??  Why by this season?  As I understand it - it is 'as now' for the next 5 years, though hoping people transition to non lead and plastic - and after that - voluntary.

I am (as I have said many times in this thread) prepared to give suitable alternatives a go as and when they become available and will switch to them IF they prove satisfactory.  However I have no intention of going out and getting a 3" chambered gun for next season as I understand that 2 1/2" lead/fibre cartridges will remain in production and remain not only 'legal', but not contradicting any 'voluntary' ban.

For me to change to non lead, non plastic will not mean changing to a 3" gun under any scenario I can currently envisage.

[Lead ban & BASC]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

Seems a bit of a pre-occupation with 2.5 inch guns. 

Surely there cant be huge numbers still used?

I think there are quite a number - all the major cartridge makers currently offer suitable ammunition (and it is similarly priced to 2 3/4, so the 'volume' will be there), so I guess the demand is there.  Not much used for clays, and not used (as far as I know) for 'high bird specials', but used by many many on 'normal days' game shoots including in 2 3/4" guns (such as the vast majority of AyAs).

[Lead ban & BASC]

49 minutes ago, figgy said:

So the 21)2" chambered guns will become obsolete. No manufactured cartridges for it.

I strongly suspect that a compatible cartridge will become available.  There is sufficient demand of most if not all manufacturers to offer 2 1/2" in lead, so it is likely that much of the demand will be there for a steel equivalent.  I understand that some have been tested in the past, but to date only with plastic wads - and these didn't go into production.  If the demand is there (and I believe it is) - someone will offer something.

[Lead ban & BASC]

9 hours ago, lancer425 said:

You need these.

Thank you for the detailed and comprehensive list.  It shows there is a way forward.  At present, I'll be sitting on my hands (and wallet) to see what emerges commercially, but it is very good to have a sensible fallback plan, which this list does.

[Lead ban & BASC]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

If you want to have a go with steel, you could do worse than look at this.

Thank you for that.  It tends to stack up well with what I had been told elsewhere - namely - start with No 4 in steel.

[Lead ban & BASC]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Sort of all round...  4s maybe 3s like where you needed 5s before. I personally think 4s.

I had 4 in mind.

 

41 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I think i would just reload.

I'm hoping for an off the shelf complete cartridge.  I don't reload at all at present and so would have to invest in the kit, and do some learning (I have various friends/contacts who do reload, so not a big issue).  I will await a commercial cartridge - and only start looking into reloads if that doesn't materialise.  I will very probably continue with lead for clays (that still apparently allowed) - and my non clay usage is quite low, maybe 200 - 300 a year, so the kit would take a while to pay off ......... but basically I'm lazy!

[Lead ban & BASC]

50 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

There genuinely is a world out there without lead , and that’s true for the small bores too. I am more concerned about plaswads than i ever am about non tox shot.

My current understanding for the sort of load I think I need is 'thought through' like this;

I currently use either 26 or 28g of No 6 lead from a 2 1/2" cartridge with fibre wads.  I am happy it suits what I do.

The drivers for me are:

1. Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered)
2. Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade).
3. Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter).  Some range reduction can be tolerated

I think what I will need is something like:

• 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy)
• Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel
• A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve)

My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them.  I don't believe any commercial load is yet available.  These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures.  They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that.

What I don't know is;

1. whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there)
2. What the concerns over steel for forestry will be
3. What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be

I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above.  I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens.

[Lead ban & BASC]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Johnfromuk,  the reason the cartridge manufactures have said impossible is because the non biodegradable wads just do not exist in the quantity required and they are only just fit for purpose in 12ga.

but the video regarding using steel shot with normal fibre wads was very interesting I have a old no value single barrel 20gauge I used to use to introduce young people to clay shooting I think I will try with some light loaded steel shot and see what damage if any is done to the barrel. Will try the copper plated steel shot.  After all the gun has no financial value. 

And it certainly will not be steel proofed so will not try to match superior steel loads.

And I will be looking to see what 'emerges' on the market in 2 1/2" for my older 12's.  In 5 years with focussed R&D on bio-degradeable (including lots for other 'plastic' products), new materials may be developed.  Agreed they don't exist now, but in time I think they will.  In theory - this is 5 years - then a 'voluntary' ban.  If there is no sensible practical alternative by then - they are going to find volunteers hard to find ....... and that may bring legislation ........ or realisation that it won't work.

[Lead ban & BASC]

15 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The point I was making was that in spite of the fact that we can see the need for something, we have a history of leaving it to the last minute. One example that stands out among many is 1939 and aircraft - or more accurately, very few.

Agreed - and also these days getting the right permissions, legislation, CE marking, licenses etc takes longer than the development.

That should be better outside the EU ........ but it won't be, because the bureaucrats will want to keep the upper hand.  Thats why the various professions who chase figures round a spreadsheet (bean counters) and words round a page (legal eagles) are among the best remunerated in our society.  We cherish and reward bureaucracy - and stifle innovation.

So often the Joe Publics - who claim to be against bureaucracy - come out with phrases like "that should be licensed", "they should have to get permission for that" or those "should be regulated and controlled".  Claim to dislike red tape - then call for more.

Apologies for the rant, but a pet hate of mine!

[Lead ban & BASC]

4 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I would like to share your positive thoughts but when the leading uk cartridge manufactures statement concludes with IMPOSSIBLE who are we not to believe them after all they should know.

 

The 'impossible' always takes a bit longer!  No - seriously, I suspect that there will be some compromise of performance - and we as sporting shooters will need to take that on board and adjust accordingly.

 

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Re your last phrase - did we? If I remember rightly it was often a case of JIT. Sooner or later that 'll turn into JTL. I just hope that we don't mark the turning point.

It may be a long way back, but the likes of Joe Manton - who is regarded the 'father' of the modern gun trade, Brunel, Alec Issigonis, all did their finest work in the UK.

[Lead ban & BASC]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for the positive reply 😊👍

We have 5 years to sort something; There is demand, there will be competition to fulfil the demand, I strongly suspect that there is a 'solution', but it may not be ideal, or suit everyone.  If we convince ourselves on month one out of 60 that "it can't be done" and so don't try, then it probably won't be done!

The cartridge manufacturers know their game - and will have to work a route forwards - and it will need investment in R&D to get the product that will sell.  But then - that is true of all innovative industry - and actually us what the UK used to do well.

[Lead ban & BASC]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Ideas on how this can become available

I believe that there will be a suitable 2 1/2" 12 bore cartridge - steel pellets, some sort of bio-degradeable wad.  On price - guess is that it would be broadly similar to lead (not bismuth).  (Steel is not fundamentally expensive as a material, but bismuth is, and the 'new' wad should hopefully not be all that expensive when in quantity production).

I suspect that we may have to be a little more careful to ensure we know the effective range - my guess being it will be a bit less, but I may be wrong on that.  For most people on 'normal' type shoots, this probably would be acceptable.  I would be quite happy to raise my cap rather than my gun to a really high bird where I knew my gun/cartridge was limited.  In my type of shooting that would be relatively few and far between as we see most birds in a very 'normal' range.  I would expect 16 and 20 to be similar to 12, 16 being more popular in Europe, so has the volume of demand.

That is my hope.

On small bores like 28 and 0.410, I think that availability will be more questionable as the volume isn't there.

[Lead ban & BASC]

1 minute ago, southeastpete said:

So if a lead ban actually came in, and all these little guns couldn’t be used with steel, would they become ‘obselete calibres’? And not need a licence?

No - you can still get 'effective' ammunition from a police point of view.  No escape there!

[Lead ban & BASC]

39 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Who compensates owners for that when it kicks in? 

There will be no compensation.

No one is compensated for these 'positive' environmental changes.  Not for you older diesel car, your gas boiler, and all of the other things we will have to gradually move away from.

Handguns were a little different - and I think that people were quite lucky to have got something there - as public opinion (which was very anti handgun) is what brings votes and votes are what governments want. 

Taxpayers money being used to compensate rich shooting types for the retirement of their Purdeys?  Not a chance!

[Lead ban & BASC]

3 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Could it be a sop to WJ. We give you lead, if you let us rear and release more Pheasants

Don't think anyone would trust WJ to stick to a deal.  I wouldn't trust them. 

Mind you my trust in organisations is currently at a 'low'.

[Lead ban & BASC]

Just now, scolopax said:

they were never going to get the membership onside, too many are absolutely wedded to sticking with the status quo. Consult as much as they wanted, the membership would never go with it. A waste of time and effort plus giving the antis more opportunities to exploit any weakness.

 

That was my conclusion as well; however IF (and there seem different versions) they didn't consult the cartridge makers, gunmakers etc ......... that was a big mistake ans seems to me either very negligent .......... or very arrogant. 

Absolutely key to making any voluntary 'ban' work will be ensuring there is a workable alternative available (for virtually all users) at a sensible cost.  For that the cartridge makers are an essential player.

[Lead ban & BASC]

11 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Not a good idea to go for an sgm. We need to pull together to sort this and not factionalise or have witch hunts or the Packham **** and his cohorts will be all over us. Wasn't just BASC who made a monumental cock up

The key things for an egm are;

• What is the agenda? (i.e. what is to be achieved)
• Can you realistically 'get your way' (i.e. carry enough votes)
• If looking to remove personnel - is/are there  'better' replacement(s) lined up and willing to stand for election?

Without these it will not achieve anything.

[Lead ban & BASC]

9 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

If the latter, that's harder.  Though I will say, as a relatively new shooter, I've never even bothered with plastic wads.  Always had fibre.  Hit things with it ok.

I think nearly all game shoots either insist on fibre, or strongly request fibre.  Similarly - all game shoots I have been on have insisted on empty cases being picked up.

The elephant currently in the room is that using steel is mainly/only really possible at present with plastic wads - but I understand that various either fibre type solutions and/or bio degradable plastics are in trial/development.

The issue of CIP or SAMI compliance does concern me because I believe SAMI compliance allows higher pressures - which may not be good news for those of us with older guns.  I will continue to watch the various developments with great interest in the hope that something with non lead shot, non plastic wad and 2 1/2" case comes along that doesn't cost a fortune.  Plastic cases I can live with as I'm sure that can be recycled, and similarly - paper cases I can live with - though swelling up on very wet days was a known problem - not one I can remember having myself when I used paper.

[Lead ban & BASC]

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i take non stop abuse for alerting you the shooting organisations are failing you so thank you to everyone who gives me stick for it  and the abuse on my comments

I will stick my head above the parapet and reply; 

Firstly and most importantly I have not intended (nor as far as I know given) and 'abuse' to you - or anyone else.  If it has come across that way - you have my unreserved apology.

I have supported the BASC because I believed that this had been talked through between the various shooting organisations who also signed the original statement - and the other interested parties such as gunmakers, proof houses, cartridge suppliers.  Why did I believe this?  Because it is what I and I think any sensible person would have done - and the fact that there were several signatory organisations made me think a sensible decision agreed by all had been taken.  I have stated earlier in this thread that I was initially disappointed that membership hadn't been consulted, but on reflection - could understand some reasons for that - notably - if you do ask - you will get a variety of responses and will inevitable disappoint many who will think they have been ignored.

It is my belief that a lead ban was/is coming via the EU anyway.

Todays statement from the cartridge manufacturers says there has been no consultation.  I find that near incredible feel massively let down by that.  I guess it may be the same with the gunmakers and the proof houses, but I don't know.

Again - my sincere apologies if you or anyone feels I have been guilty of any 'abuse'.  There are a range of views on this forum - and all are of interest - even if I don't always share those views.

[Lead ban & BASC]

4 minutes ago, ilovemyheckler said:

it's astonishing and/or arrogant that BASC and the others have made such a "sport changing" decision without any consultation with members or the UK cartridge manufacturers.

Sadly - I find this sums it up well /\