burntout Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Hello there, First post on here so go easy on me. Little history lesson first - I'm 26 and live in Norfolk. I currently have 2 permissions equaling around 40 acres but should be expanding these shortly as one of the landowners is a good family friend so introductions and recommendations will be fairly hassle free. I've been shooting air rifles for many years (currently selling my Air Arms S400 to help fund the shotgun) with much success but have decided as I can afford to that I'd like to make the move across to shotguns. I've been clay pigeon shooting many times and have been fortunate enough to have been invited on pigeon shoots (from a hide) in the past which I must say I enjoyed considerably more than rifle shooting - it's almost become a little easy as Realtree camo puts the ball firmly in my court, plus not to mention lamping....they dont have a chance! I'm putting my application in this week for my certificate and will be buying and installing a gun safe shortly. I'm looking for a shotgun in the region of £700, something that will be suitable for both clay pigeon and hide shooting, with the occasional driven shoot when finances allow..... I've dealt with churchills of dereham many times and they have a couple in stock which caught my eye.... One is the Zabala Classic o/u 12g - multi choke, auto ejector, 29.5" barrel, new for £600 and the other is Beretta 686 o/u 12g - full and 3/4 choked, 29.5" barrel, second hand for £695 If anyone has any experience of these shotguns or any advice it would be much appreciated. I wont be focusing on any one discipline so something that can handle most situations well would be ideal. I read a review on the Zabala and it looks suitable if a little heavy at over 8lbs - it also features a 3.1/2 inch breach - is this suitable for normal cartridges also? (3" i understand?) Bit of a new guy so I appreciate your help - in exhange I can tell you most anything you want to know about Aprilia RSV1000R's or S400's!! Thanks Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I'd go for the Beretta - seems cheap. What's up with it? The 3 1/2" is the max size cartridge you can use, you can use anything smaller. The Beretta will likely have a 3" chamber. (you need 3" for the magnum rounds if you might shoot a fox or two) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I'd go for the Beretta - seems cheap. What's up with it? The 3 1/2" is the max size cartridge you can use, you can use anything smaller. The Beretta will likely have a 3" chamber. (you need 3" for the magnum rounds if you might shoot a fox or two) Thanks for the reply. Not sure about the foxes myself - I quite like them and there's no chickens nearby! I was thinking the same - the only thing is it's second hand - they have a couple of other ones on there as well, 682 E trap for £800 or so. The 686 can be found here... linky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 get a hatsan escort for 350 for pigeon shooting there cheap reliable and you won't cry if you scrath it in the hide and if your only rarely gonna go on a shoot just pick up a baikal o/u or a cheap second hand o/u then you've got one for all occasions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Trap guns are heavy to reduce recoil. You want either a game gun or a sporter. The 686 looks nice, but does it 'fit' you? That's more important than the look or make. You lose less money on a 2nd hand one than new if you come to sell it, and a Beretta would be likely easier to sell. Seems quite tightly choked......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glensman Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I have a 682 Sporter, It's Ideal for clays or game (in my opinion) As it's your first gun try not to be swayed by fancy engraving or chequering, just buy a good gun, ie brand, build etc. There's not a lot of need for a 3 1/2 chamber, I find 3 " fine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Hi burnt out and welcome from an other Norwich boy . You wont go wrong if you buy yourself a multi choke sporter which will double as a field gun and a clay gun . With your budget you should be able to buy a second hand beretta over and under , you should also have a look at the betinsoli multi choke sporter as these are are very good well made gun and you would be able to buy a new one which will carry a warrenty . Best of luck . Harnser . I am a Norfolkman and I glory in this fact . Horatio Nelson . Edited September 28, 2009 by Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 You wont go wrong if you buy yourself a multi choke sporter which will double as a field gun and a clay gun . With your budget you should be able to buy a second hand beretta over and under , you should also have a look at the betinsoli multi choke sporter as these are are very good well made gun and you would be able to buy a new one which will carry a warrenty . Best of luck . Harnser . I agree with Harnser, you won't go far wrong with a Beretta. Personly i would give the one you mention with the tight chokes 3/4 and full a miss and either wait for a multichoke or a more open choked gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) I have a 682 Sporter, It's Ideal for clays or game (in my opinion) As it's your first gun try not to be swayed by fancy engraving or chequering, just buy a good gun, ie brand, build etc. There's not a lot of need for a 3 1/2 chamber, I find 3 " fine... I'm more after build quality, feel, fit and reputation for sure. I want something nice but it has to be practical as it's going to get a lot of use over its life. Hi burnt out and welcome from an other Norwich boy . You wont go wrong if you buy yourself a multi choke sporter which will double as a field gun and a clay gun . With your budget you should be able to buy a second hand beretta over and under , you should also have a look at the betinsoli multi choke sporter as these are are very good well made gun and you would be able to buy a new one which will carry a warrenty . Best of luck . Harnser . I am a Norfolkman and I glory in this fact . Horatio Nelson . Thanks for the welcome...where abouts are you shooting? I'm looking to join Lakenheath Clay club for the bulk of my clay pigeon shooting. I live right next to the Mid Norfolk Shooting School but only being open from 10-4 Wed - Fri is a little inconvenient as I work mid week. It's a shame they only appear open these times but I'll give them a call and double check as a 5 minute journey is a little more convenient than 1 hour! Multi-choked sporter it is then. Looks like the Zabala may be a good starting point, but we'll see. I agree with Harnser, you won't go far wrong with a Beretta. Personly i would give the one you mention with the tight chokes 3/4 and full a miss and either wait for a multichoke or a more open choked gun. When it details multi choked I assume they are removable / interchangeable, and that the full / 3/4 beretta are fixed in there? Thanks for the advice guys. I'll have a look around some shops this weekend, try some on for size and speak to the gunsmiths and go from there. Edited September 28, 2009 by burntout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glensman Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 When it details multi choked I assume they are removable / interchangeable, and that the full / 3/4 beretta are fixed in there? Yes, that's exactly the difference. With fixed choke they aren't so much stuck ion there as it is the bore itself... Multi-choke is an advantage, I find I don't make use of it as much as I thought I would... But if you're planning on doing different disciplines of clays they multi-choke will be a distinct advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) Yes, that's exactly the difference. With fixed choke they aren't so much stuck ion there as it is the bore itself... Multi-choke is an advantage, I find I don't make use of it as much as I thought I would... But if you're planning on doing different disciplines of clays they multi-choke will be a distinct advantage. In what situations would each choke type be most beneficial? I gather a full choke would give a tighter pattern over greater range so perhaps would be more suitable for game shooting where a solid kill is required and ranges may be larger sooner, and perhaps a 1/4 or half for clay to give a wider pattern and increase the chance of a hit..... Similarly what is the benefit of having different chokes in each - would it be the case that the bottom (or first barrel to fire) would have a more open choke aticipating closer ranges and the top barrel would feature a tighter choke to allow the second shot to be safely made on a bird that is flying away (assuming you missed with the first shot that is). Sorry if these questions seem a little basic but coming from airguns there is a lot to learn to make sure I make the right choices and shoot safely and effectively. Just sent my application off so should be up and running by end of Nov / middle Dec - hopefully I'll have something nice in the cabinet in time for some christmas shooting. Edited September 29, 2009 by burntout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazkb Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Right forget chokes (for now) and forget everything else starting from scratch you need to find a gun that Fit's you, is comfy and gives you confidence, go to your gun dealer and ask him to find you a gun that fits once you know the difference between a good fit and a bad fit can you go and find the right gun my friend :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) Right forget chokes (for now) and forget everything elsestarting from scratch you need to find a gun that Fit's you, is comfy and gives you confidence, go to your gun dealer and ask him to find you a gun that fits once you know the difference between a good fit and a bad fit can you go and find the right gun my friend :yp: Tazkb - thanks for the post. I understand the importance of the fit of the gun - of course something which can only be judged in store and once I know what fits I have a better idea of what to go for, however I was simply trying to understand the various merits of each choke type. Knowledge is power, as they say, so to pass up the opportunity to expand my knowledge prior to being able to be fitted, would be foolish. You wouldn't buy a car after only kicking the tyres would you?! Unfortunately (for you guys it seems ) it is in my nature to research things very thoroughly prior to approaching anyone regarding the possibility of a sale. I like to have as much of an understanding of what I am entering into especially when it is my hard earned I'm parting with. It also makes reading the magazines and publications / reviews more enjoyable (and applicable) as I will start to understand what they are talking about! I will be popping to some shops at the weekend to have a look around and try some on for size and after some research will now go in with at least a clue what to look for and by gosh, I can even understand some of the terms they may use! :blink: Edited September 29, 2009 by burntout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushat Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Unfortunately (for you guys it seems ) it is in my nature to research things very thoroughly In which case, a little search on here will find millions of threads on chokes :blink: 1/4 and 1/2 and don't worry about them any more!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBL Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Burnout - I have had a similar question asked of me by a close friend who is also keen on taking up shotgun shooting, and has a budget generally in a comparable area to yours. I prepared for him a detailed e-mail on the items he would need to consider in the first instance - so given that you have some experience already you may wish to ignore some items. However, hopefully there will be some food for thought in the attached - not saying this is 100% right or wrong and is opinion, but thought it was worth sharing with you; 1) Shotgun itself; Does not have to be a Beretta or Browning; some very well respected over and under manufacturers shown here for < £900/£1k; http://gunmart.net/gun_review/bettinsoli_d...nd_line_deluxe/ http://gunmart.net/gun_review/franchi_harrier_sporter/ http://gunmart.net/gun_review/miroku_mk70/ Upping the ante....if your budget suddenly expanded!! http://gunmart.net/gun_review/browning_525_advance_sporter/ http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/shotguns/...gun_review.html (the Silver Pigeon range is very well respected and excellent for sporting clays/live quarry). For all the disciplines of clay shooting, it is probably best to get a multichoke as this will cover you for sporting, skeet, trap etc etc and won't restrict you if the chokes are too tight. This also then covers you for the myriad of field-shooting, be it wildfowling (which I highly recommend you look at getting involved in), driven, pigeon or rough shooting. A lot then comes down to "feel", weight, barrel length (28-30 inches is the standard), stock fit, reputation/brand, looks (some like engraving, others not), wood quality. There are a myriad of choices, but it comes down to personal choice. 2) Gun fitting session - @ a good shooting ground, anywhere from £50 to £150 for an hour session with try guns to get your "ideal" measurements. As many have stated on this forum, gun fit is critical and money spent in this area is never wasted in the long term. I got my O/U Rizzini fitted when I bought it over 20 yrs ago and it still benefits me to this day. 3) Shooting lesson; could purchase a course of 2-3 perhaps or go with 1 early one and put it into practice the basics. Look at £50 per hour for a lesson. 4) Gun Cabinet - recommend a Brattonsound; police approved and highly recommend; reckon on £100 for a Sentinel Plus extra secure 3-4 gun model to allow you to put 2 guns minimum in. 5) Hearing protection - EMTEC are the company and are excellent. Work on £75 for a moulded pair. You can go measurably more expensive on this if you want, but I find these very effective for clays and live quarry shooting. If you needed to get a gun stock measurably amended/fitted to you, then you can add on £50-£300+ dependant on the complexity of the amendments and the quality of the gunsmith. Hope this helps (from one former Norfolk dweller to a present one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Burnout - I have had a similar question asked of me by a close friend who is also keen on taking up shotgun shooting, and has a budget generally in a comparable area to yours. I prepared for him a detailed e-mail on the items he would need to consider in the first instance - so given that you have some experience already you may wish to ignore some items. However, hopefully there will be some food for thought in the attached - not saying this is 100% right or wrong and is opinion, but thought it was worth sharing with you; 1) Shotgun itself; Does not have to be a Beretta or Browning; some very well respected over and under manufacturers shown here for < £900/£1k; http://gunmart.net/gun_review/bettinsoli_d...nd_line_deluxe/ http://gunmart.net/gun_review/franchi_harrier_sporter/ http://gunmart.net/gun_review/miroku_mk70/ Upping the ante....if your budget suddenly expanded!! http://gunmart.net/gun_review/browning_525_advance_sporter/ http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/shotguns/...gun_review.html (the Silver Pigeon range is very well respected and excellent for sporting clays/live quarry). For all the disciplines of clay shooting, it is probably best to get a multichoke as this will cover you for sporting, skeet, trap etc etc and won't restrict you if the chokes are too tight. This also then covers you for the myriad of field-shooting, be it wildfowling (which I highly recommend you look at getting involved in), driven, pigeon or rough shooting. A lot then comes down to "feel", weight, barrel length (28-30 inches is the standard), stock fit, reputation/brand, looks (some like engraving, others not), wood quality. There are a myriad of choices, but it comes down to personal choice. 2) Gun fitting session - @ a good shooting ground, anywhere from £50 to £150 for an hour session with try guns to get your "ideal" measurements. As many have stated on this forum, gun fit is critical and money spent in this area is never wasted in the long term. I got my O/U Rizzini fitted when I bought it over 20 yrs ago and it still benefits me to this day. 3) Shooting lesson; could purchase a course of 2-3 perhaps or go with 1 early one and put it into practice the basics. Look at £50 per hour for a lesson. 4) Gun Cabinet - recommend a Brattonsound; police approved and highly recommend; reckon on £100 for a Sentinel Plus extra secure 3-4 gun model to allow you to put 2 guns minimum in. 5) Hearing protection - EMTEC are the company and are excellent. Work on £75 for a moulded pair. You can go measurably more expensive on this if you want, but I find these very effective for clays and live quarry shooting. If you needed to get a gun stock measurably amended/fitted to you, then you can add on £50-£300+ dependant on the complexity of the amendments and the quality of the gunsmith. Hope this helps (from one former Norfolk dweller to a present one). Cheers :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBL Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Oh - and make sure you join the BASC and Countryside Alliance! The more voices there are the better it is. If you are interested in Wildfowling, the Rockland Wildfowlers and Norwich Wildfowlers are close by and superb clubs to get involved in for remarkably little money vs driven days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 In which case, a little search on here will find millions of threads on chokes :blink: 1/4 and 1/2 and don't worry about them any more!! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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