SNAKEBITE Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Went out last night to one of my shoots. I always check in with the chap who owns the stables and just let him know I am there. He owns fields for thr horses and leases two other fields from his neighbour. For the last 8 months I have had full access to all the land. My friend who keeps his horses on the leased land welcomes me with open arms in order to get rid of the rabbits. On my way round the neighbour pops his head over the fence and asks who gave me permission to shoot, so I explain. He was more bothered that he was not asked permission by the "tenant" about me shooting than he was by me being there. His only concern was his grandchildren when they stay there. Anyway......... the long and short of it was that he has not got a problem with me being there but I will ring him in future and let him know I'm coming. THE MAIN QUESTION I HAVE IS.............. IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS WHO'S PERMISSION DO I NEED? THE LAND OWNER OR THE TENNANT? This is really a question to help out anyone who might find themselves in a similar position in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Land owner, The tennant can shoot him self but has no right giving permission to others to do so without the express authority of the owner. Having said all that the owner has a legal obligation to control vermin on is land. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Just try your best to keep everyone happy mate. Even if someone is an #### LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted July 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Just try your best to keep everyone happy mate. Even if someone is an #### LB That is my thought! It is all cool now, he even said I could carry on while I was there. I offered him a couple of the rabbits I caught (all oven ready of course) but he declined. Seemed pleased to be offered though. Whilst I was chatting to him he seemed to be knowledgable about the country ways. Seemed to be having trouble with them in his garden! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Just try your best to keep everyone happy mate. Even if someone is an #### LB That is my thought! It is all cool now, he even said I could carry on while I was there. I offered him a couple of the rabbits I caught (all oven ready of course) but he declined. Seemed pleased to be offered though. Whilst I was chatting to him he seemed to be knowledgable about the country ways. Seemed to be having trouble with them in his garden! Good. It looks like you have found some new shooting LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roblade Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 (edited) THE MAIN QUESTION I HAVE IS.............. IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS WHO'S PERMISSION DO I NEED? THE LAND OWNER OR THE TENNANT? This is really a question to help out anyone who might find themselves in a similar position in the future. YOU SHOULD ALWAY GET PERMISION IN WRITING FROM THE LAND OWNER Not only does this cover you with the police should they ask where your going but also with any people you may come across that are a little curiouse as to what your doing. most of the time you will find that a tenant has the right to use the land for his own personal use but even he would have to ask permion to do any shooting there himself, from the land owner. In this case it has a happy ending but it could easily have gone another way where you would possibly be facing some seriouse charges. As shooting where you dont have permision could have been classed as poaching, car could have been confiscated rifle taken away as well as the posibility of armed tresspass, unlikly but all possible I think the only real exception to this rule is permision for shooting on golf courses as this is usually handled by the head green keeper. ROB found these two usful bits of info on the airgunforum: shooting enquiry shooting permision Edited July 16, 2005 by roblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! This can be a tricky one ,although it should'nt be as what i'm talking about is fathers handing down land to their sons etc and then falling out which result in terms being changed. Of course as you won't be aware of this your only defence is that SIGNATURE in writing I speak from EXPERIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I think someone from BASC should answer this one, because I was always under the impression that a “Tenant” had the right to engage up to Three servants to help with vermin control. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Contact BASC. But I am quite sure that it is the Tenant who has the last say in this case. I believe its all tied up with the Ground Game Act. In the day and age of the big shooting estates the tenant farmers in many places had their crops devestated by rabbits and hares. The tenants could not touch these animals as they belonged to the landowner, who would leave them alone like any other game for the organised shoot days. Due to this situation i think a law was passed so that a tenant can protect his crops from rabbits and hares without having to get permission from the actual landowner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 B.A.S.C. it is. This is really out of curiousity really as I have in effect got permission now all I have to do is ask before going into the fields. I would do this anyway out of courtesey(sp?) now as his grandchildren could be there. Oh and a signature would go down well as well !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Snakebite Prince Charles is Land owner (Cornwall i believe) but i doubt you've ever get his permission in writing ,it would be from a tenant on one of his many farms . The experience i'd refered to earlier was that the son thought he was the landowner but unbeknown to me he NEVER had the deeds to this piece of land in his possession .A family feud occurred and the rest is history . As a result i NOW word my written permission like the following.................... .......... I (name of landowner/tennant) who have authority to grant shooting rights hereby give permission to deadeye ive to use rimfire,centrefire and shotgun to carry out vermin and fox control on (name of land or farms in Question) Signed (IMPORTANT BIT) Hope this helps Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hi Snakebite, Interesting dilema, it's certainly worth adding a few extra questions when asking about permission. I must admit, I have never considered leased land and the rights to shoot. However, we do have one permission (the golf course with surrounding arable land), but are not able to shoot the leased parts of the land (all arable) as the land owner has not been approached as of yet. It think from now on, I will definately ask about any leased land and if necessary, ask for permission from the land owner as well. As Rob explains, it's better to be cautious than to be on the wrong end of the law, I like my rifle and my car! I'll see you for Tuesday's shoot, oh and while we are on the subject, we'd better checkup on the lease status of the additional 80 Acres we've just got. Regards, Axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I'll see you for Tuesday's shoot, oh and while we are on the subject, we'd better checkup on the lease status of the additional 80 Acres we've just got. You mean the verbal permission of the woman who knows the man whos land it is is not enough Lets get those letters printed up, pronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 A tenant is allowed to `take` ground game or allow another person to do so for `reward`. Allowing that person to keep the ground game is considered reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted August 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 A tenant is allowed to `take` ground game or allow another person to do so for `reward`. Allowing that person to keep the ground game is considered reward. Yeah, BUT if the LAND OWNER is a little "iffey" with it all he can over rule the Tennants decision. Any way I am sorted now as I went there last Thursday, gave him a ring before hand and made a point of going over and having a chat. I would rather do that than have him get arsey and lose the land. (It is only about 3-4 acres BUT it makes a good walk round and land is land! :o ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Got to be honest, after looking into this a little further, I would not want to be on a permission without written authorisation. If Landowners don't want to sign a letter of permission, it kinda rasises the question as to why not? Better to be safe than sorry, just my oppinion. Regards, Axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted August 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Got to be honest, after looking into this a little further, I would not want to be on a permission without written authorisation. If Landowners don't want to sign a letter of permission, it kinda rasises the question as to why not? Better to be safe than sorry, just my oppinion. Regards, Axe. The main reason that people are afraid to sign somthing is because they think they will be liable if somthing happened. They feel that they will be blamed if an accident occurs and then be sued. You know thats B******t, I know that is B******t, but they are still worried. That is why it is VITAL to have insurance. That way you are covered. If challenged you can point the way to the landowner if you do not have written permission. If something happens to a person or property then point all you want, the only way out is by paying, and if you are not insured it could be quite a bill! Like you said yourself, better safe than sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) Thats all very well, but what happens then if something does happen and the land owner simply denies any prior arrangement. You wouldnt have a leg to stand on without the written letter! [Edit] Neither will your insurance count for anything with regards to the law. Tresspassing with an air rifle is what you would be facing. I hear what your saying regards people not wanting to sign. However a short well worded letter with a disclaimer to the land owner should cover this. You can even discuss this with them. As for insurance, well its something that I whole heartedly agree with. Anyone wishing to perform such activities should carry up to date insurance while doing so. As you say, this will go some way to promote well being with the land owner and the authorities should even the smallest incodent occur. Either way though, I am currently asking all owners of the permission I shoot to sign an agreement letter. If they refuse, I will cease any further pest controlling of their land! Which is something I think you should consider also. Regards, Axe. Edited August 1, 2005 by Axe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 I hear what your saying regards people not wanting to sign. However a short well worded letter with a disclaimer to the land owner should cover this. You can even discuss this with them. Exactly the right way to go about getting written permission ,a pack of beer normally works as well Axe Most landowners are sceptical due to liability laws these days so word your letter accordingly saying you are insured and accountable for your actions :o Cheers Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clone Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) This is what i use it seems to cover most angles for shooters and farmers SHOOTING PERMISSION AGREEMENT An Agreement between: (Print name, address, telephone no.) (hereinafter referred to as the Landowner) and: (Print name, address, telephone no.) John Anderson blah,blah,blah blah,blah blah (hereinafter referred to as the Shooter) The Landowner agrees to let the Shooter and his/her shooting partners control by shooting those pests covered under Schedule II of the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981, Section 1 of the Pest Control Act 1954, Ground Game Act 1880 etc. until such a time as it is deemed appropriate to withdraw that permission. The boundaries for this activity will be confined to the area(s) defined by the Landowner. The Shooter’s associates will be named and any change or variation to those associates will be by prior agreement with the Landowner. In return for the granting of this permission, the Shooter and his/her associates will respect the land and the livestock and the crops thereon. The Shooter and his/her associates will behave in a safe and responsible manner at all times and respect the wishes of the Landowner. The Shooter and his/her associates will bear responsibility for prior notification of the Landowner and appropriate Authorities of the date/time/duration of their intended shooting activities. Disclaimer ************************************************** ****************************** The Landowner takes no responsibility for the actions of the Shooter and his/her associates. Any illegal acts committed by the Shooter and his/her associates on the Landowner’s land, whether they result in prosecution or not, will mean that all shooting permission is immediately forfeit. The Shooter and his/her associates will endeavour to comply with all legal obligations regarding the use of firearms. The Landowner accepts no responsibility for their non-compliance with current firearms legislation. The Shooter and his/her associates will carry appropriate, adequate and up-to-date public liability insurance for their activities. The Landowner will have no insurance liability in respect of shooting activities and any consequential events arising from such shooting activities as carried out by the Shooter and his/her associates ************************************************** ****************************** The undersigned Shooter and declared associates have the undersigned Landowner’s permission to shoot on the Landowner’s property: Associate #1: (Print name, address, contact telno.) .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. Associate #2: (Print name, address, contact telno.) .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. Associate #3: (Print name, address, contact telno.) .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. Associate #4: (Print name, address, contact telno.) .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. Associate #5: (Print name, address, contact telno.) .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .............................. Signed.............................. (Landowner) Signed.............................. (Shooter) Date......../......../........ Edited August 1, 2005 by clone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Recommend you word your permission with yourself and not other people being the focus of attention and let friends or associates get their own permission in writing.Be accountable for your own actions only :o :o Cheers Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Perhaps adding the line: The Shooter and his/her associates will bear responsibility for his/her own actions independantly. Would solve that one. Regards, Axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul in North Lincs. Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 As a chartered surveyor I deal with this sort of thing every day....Landlord and tenant issues are always tricky. Most agricultural leases will stipulate that the tenant is responsible for the control of vermin. However, in turn everything the tenant does is subject to the Landlords consent, so really we do have a 'catch 22' on these sort of matters. The top and bottom of it is that any shooting activity needs to be approved my both the landowner and the tenant. :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roblade Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 you can never go worng with a good belt and braces ROB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham20g Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 now heres a funny one that hapend to me some years ago[ 5or6] I was out lamping when the local plob came over to check for written permission which I had, But then he asks me is the land owner paying me to lamp his fields ? why? I ask all innocent .he says that if he isnt he is breaking the law. I told him that the farmer let me keep what I shot this satisfied plod and off he went Has anyone else heard of this law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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