Can Deer be classed as vermin/pests ?

[Blackbart]

I have some permission(2000 acres) that i can shoot on.It is split between 2 different farms bt they run into each other.Due to the church comissioners selling the land to a new owner there have been a few changes to where i can shoot.No-one is allowed to shoot in the woods but the tenant farmers can still shoot on the fields for pest control to protect their crops.The place is wick with roe deer and the farmer wants some shot,sadly for the main reason they are attracting poachers at night running dogs on them.

 

Do you think this would cause probs with the new landlord as the farmers are only allowed to shoot pests for crop protection ?

[al4x]

no is the simple answer they will always be different. Fundamentally if your farmer wants them shot he needs to sort it out for you. If crops are being damaged then he may have an argument. You run the risk of doing it and getting nicked for poaching and at that point I bet mr farmer won't defend you

[flytie]

There is the "Farmers Defence" enshrined in law, meaning he/or his appointed agent, can protect his crops where they are being damaged, not when the deer are going to and from the crop. But it is a tenuous defence to hide behind.

 

The farmer would be much better off coming to an agreement with the other landowner about a deer management plan. There are downloads available from the Deer Initiative web site to help you do a management plan.

 

Try taking the bloke some venison and having a chat with him, it can't hurt.

 

Atb, ft

[Blackbart]

There is the "Farmers Defence" enshrined in law, meaning he/or his appointed agent, can protect his crops where they are being damaged, not when the deer are going to and from the crop. But it is a tenuous defence to hide behind.

 

The farmer would be much better off coming to an agreement with the other landowner about a deer management plan. There are downloads available from the Deer Initiative web site to help you do a management plan.

 

Try taking the bloke some venison and having a chat with him, it can't hurt.

 

Atb, ft

 

 

Can't take the bloke some venison as he is in london at best or israel at worst.

 

It is a strange one this as the owner does not want/know about/care (insert anyone you want)about the deer.They just do not want any shooting in the woods.They didnt want any full stop,but agreed the farmers could do it on the fields for crop protection(when faced with the question,"you are the landlord,you sort the pests out".Which means i still get to shoot pigeons and foxes(as they have sheep)and was wondering if deer could fall into the catagory of pest.

Mr farmer would defend me and i do shoot there now and have done for years,but was just wondering how things would pan out if the agent phoned the plod,like he did a few weeks ago cos somene was banging away at pigeons coming in to roost(turned out to be an old fellow who had been shooting there for 30 year and didnt know there was a new owner and new rules)

 

I guess what i am getting at is if the owner has said it is ok to shoot out in the fields for pest control,could i shoot the deer under the terms pest control.?

[Bleeh]

Can't take the bloke some venison as he is in london at best or israel at worst.

 

It is a strange one this as the owner does not want/know about/care (insert anyone you want)about the deer.They just do not want any shooting in the woods.They didnt want any full stop,but agreed the farmers could do it on the fields for crop protection(when faced with the question,"you are the landlord,you sort the pests out".Which means i still get to shoot pigeons and foxes(as they have sheep)and was wondering if deer could fall into the catagory of pest.

Mr farmer would defend me and i do shoot there now and have done for years,but was just wondering how things would pan out if the agent phoned the plod,like he did a few weeks ago cos somene was banging away at pigeons coming in to roost(turned out to be an old fellow who had been shooting there for 30 year and didnt know there was a new owner and new rules)

 

I guess what i am getting at is if the owner has said it is ok to shoot out in the fields for pest control,could i shoot the deer under the terms pest control.?

 

 

From a Legal point of view, you have 2 different catagorys for controlable animals.

 

To put it simply, you have Pests (Pigeons, Crows, Jays on the General licence, and Foxes, Rats, Rabbits and so on, on the mammal act). And you have Game which have seasons (Pheasants, Deer, wildfowl, etc).

 

 

You are getting confused from conseving something from being 'a pest' to the more legal phrasing 'pests'. Deer count as Game, no matter how annoying they become. You'll get yourself confused if you keep calling them pests, as they arn't (But they can be .. if you catch my drift).

 

 

I think you arn't doing yourself any favours by terming it 'Pest control'. If you start calling it 'Crop Protection' this would obviously include Deer.

[flytie]

I guess what i am getting at is if the owner has said it is ok to shoot out in the fields for pest control,could i shoot the deer under the terms pest control.?

 

I think the answer is a qualified yes, if you can prove they are damaging the crop. Otherwise it could be sticky.

 

On one of our local estates they let the farmers lease the game shooting from the estate if they want to, if they (the tennants) do not want to, the estate will not lease it out to anyone else. You have to lease through the farmers. But it is understood by the estate management, that farmers or their appointed agent, are allowed to cull vermin/pests that are affecting their livelihood. Deer are not excluded from this agreement.

 

I hope you get this sorted out, without costing you a fortune. Could BASC help?

 

Atb, ft

[al4x]

Ft what actual background do you have to qualify this, tennant farmers have long been able to control vermin which has been taken to be the obvious pigeons and rabbits however after that it gets murky and depends on the estate layout. Most keep the game shooting in house as there is usually a financial benefit to be had from it. Trying to include deer under pests and vermin is going to be tricky one plus point is they don't run a commercial or game shoot on the land which means they have no interest in the deer. However as is apparent if the police have been called once its a situation where you could well have to explain things, easiest option would be for the farmer to put the question in writing to the landlord and try and get a response. My issue would be that the tennant farmer doesn't appear to have the game shooting rights if he had there would be no question to ask as Deer would be included. Out of interest why have they excluded shooting from the woodland?

If you do decide to take a chance on it with the farmers backing BB I'd be doing it very quietly so early mornings etc and leaving no trace behind, tends to keep things easier

Edited February 5, 2010 by al4x

[CharlieT]

To be able to take deer one must have authority from the land owner or the person holding the shooting/sporting rights.

 

Under no circumstances, even in the context we are talking about, can deer be classed as vermin or pests to be shot by a tenant farmer who's crops they are eating. To do so the tenant would require authority from the owner.

 

In law tenants and one other person authorised by the tenant for reward have the right to control rabbits on tenanted land. However this exemption does apply to deer.

 

The so called "farmers defense" only applies when the farmer has the legal right to take deer.

 

Deer are unique in so much as they are subject to the Deer Act 1991 and amendments. They are game not vermin.

 

Although they may be a pest to your farmer he can't take them unless he owns the shooting rights. As Al4x suggests your farmer needs to discuss the matter of deer damage with the land owner.

[flytie]

Chaps, as i said this is one estate, local to me, and their interpretation of the problems involved.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this situatuion wants clarifying with the owner of the land, it was not my intention to say that this (my) local situation applies countrywide, it plainly does not. It is an amicable working arrangement by an estate and it's tennants, in an area where groups of 100 or more fallow are not uncommon. Whe also have occassional large (20+) gatherings of roe too.

 

I canot concieve of an estate that would cause inconvenience and upset to its tennants by not allowing them to control animals of any discription that were destroying their crops. They would have to be pretty blinkered or members of LACS to take this stance. That's why i suggested getting an opinion by the BASC, to clarify the matter.

 

ft

[Highlander]

I have some permission(2000 acres) that i can shoot on.It is split between 2 different farms bt they run into each other.Due to the church comissioners selling the land to a new owner there have been a few changes to where i can shoot.No-one is allowed to shoot in the woods but the tenant farmers can still shoot on the fields for pest control to protect their crops.The place is wick with roe deer and the farmer wants some shot,sadly for the main reason they are attracting poachers at night running dogs on them.

Do you think this would cause probs with the new landlord as the farmers are only allowed to shoot pests for crop protection ?

 

I take it the farmer is a tenant of the landowner yes/no? If so it would depend upon his lease as to whether he or the landowner is responsible for or entitled to take deer. Work through that with farmer then go talk to landowner if necessary. If landowner isn't very co operative then call out plod to deal with poachers a few times late at night and get landowner out of bed etc etc...he might then see sense!

[Blackbart]

On reflection,i think i will leave the deer to the poachers.It isnt possible to speak to the actual land owner as it is a london/israeli consortium that has bought the land.There is a land agent the farmers speak to but even they are vague about shooting,stating that the only instructions they have is "no shooting in the woods".The farmers did own the sporting rights as we had a shoot on there for 30 years or so but from what i gather these rights went with the sale of the land.The agent has said they can shoot in the fields for vermin/pests.I do not know the reason for the no shooting in woods carry on but they are adamant about it.

It seems like too much hassle to try and sort it out so i will just have to leave it.I dont want to end up getting in any bother by doing it and i have lots of other land i can shoot on anyway.It's just a pity as there is an awfull lot of deer present on the land and really some do need culling for their own good.

 

Thanks for the replies...

[CharlieT]

Just a thought but the Land Agent may have no objection to you shooting them in the fields. Worth your farmer posing the question.