Big Dog Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 I have a .22 lr bolt action 77/22 All Weather Ruger (Syn & S, Steel) Recently I have become unhappy with it when shooting subs. I normally shoot Winchester subs and Winchester Lazers. Recently I've been getting the feeling my groups are bad. They can be inches apart at 50 yrds. Today I bought 50 Eley subs HPs to try. I was talking to my dealer about it. I also note that if you bring a sub out of the breach the lead has a wee mark on it, Lazers dont as they are copper coated. The Wins have a bit heavier lead at the hollow point (squarer) than the Eleys. My dealer asked me if I put my thumb on top of the barrel when shooting, yes I think I do sometimes. He and another guy said that would make a major difference even at 50 yrds especially if the barrel floats. So heres the question: - Are they right, they also seemed to imply the s/steel barrel played a role in this??? - Do you think the bullet is getting marked going in or coming out?? - If it is marked going in can anything be fone to fix it. Now can you give me more pointers to improve the gun, trigger etc I may get some time tomorrow to try the Eley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 All barrels when fired set up a "harmonic vibration"which is the same every time you shoot and if anything is different on the barrel then the point of aim will be out. So if you touch/rest the barrel differently or don`t have the silencer on etc. then you won`t group like you should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 my guess would be this, it is either loose in the wood or not floated properly, this means sometimes the barrel touches wood sometimes it dosent, this has the same affect as putting your thumb on the barrel, in that it changes the POI also, mixing copper washed rounds with lead is a complete no no, very few guns will shoot lead accuratly once the barrel is fouled with copper. if i was you i would; give the gun a clean, make sure hte barrel is completely clean check the barrel is fully floated, or fully not floated, not half and half, if its not floated properly then use sand paper to float it check that all the screws on the gun are tight, including mount screws use eley ammunition, or winchester, but wat ever you do use copper wash last, so you know it wont affect accuracy of lead. also consider swaping the scope off its not unusual to give the scope a knock and for it to just stop holding zero, it happens, a simple airgun scope which is proven to hold zero will prove if the scope is at fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted September 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Nick the stock is Synthetttttttt.... Are you saying never use copper rounds?? or is it ok to shoot one one day clean and use the other the next. I don't have to re zero. Lazer are at 70yrds and the subs dead on at 40 yrds 1/2" above impact point at 50yrds Another thing, I clean my gun everytime I use it. I use a copper cleaner and put a little oil, very little. I rarely dry the bore b4 shooting but would usually put a couple of rounds off to clean out the oil. Today my dealer said he had a mag and after cleaning it was all over the place up to 50 rounds fired. Then it was spot on from there on. I know that is a debate on it own??;)?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 copper is fine to use if its all you use, but in all the guns ive ever shot they wont shoot straight with lead ammo after being fouled with copper washed. there are exceptions, but this is the case with everything ive ever owned (not much ) or had a chance to shoot alot (quite a few guns) as for the magazines, unless the magazine has a high point and is distorting the bullets as they go in i cant see why it would make any difference, as you say an intresting point. you might try removing your silencer if you have one? if that tightens up the groups then look for moving parts inside the silencer, which might touch the bullet as it passes through, (ive seen it before with a logun silencer ) pretty much, check screws, check scope isnt at fault, try eleys with silencer and without, if this isnt sorted then im clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Big Dog, Have you a moderator fitted??? If so, check it, if it's damaged your bullets will clip the side, this will obviously effect you point of aim!!!! Bazooka Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 (edited) Ive never cleaned my .22 rimmy and must have put best part of a 1000 round's through it in last 18 months still groups well. PS i use both Winchester and Eley and there doesnt seem to be any difference between them. Edited September 30, 2005 by hawkeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 no need to clean them regually as long as you maintain ammo type my rimfire has done just short of 1500 rounds so far, had it since about march and the last group it shot was its best. its still running in, accuracy wont go of for ALOT of rounds i have no intention of cleaning the barrel untill i feel like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peck Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Big Dog, we all get a little complacent about shooting after a while, so check that everything is tight on the rifle, check that your position is correct, try and tweek the magazine so that the round is not sitting proud of the top and catching the breech when the round is chambered, if needs be load your rounds by hand, if that does not work try a different scope, preferably one that you know works ok on another rifle. if that does not work see below. I would personally never shoot a rifle when there is oil left inside the barrel even if its only a very small amount, its ok to leave oil in the barrel for storage ( with the barrel down ) but always make sure that you run a couple of clean patches through before you shoot If your rifle has steadily got worse over the time you have used it and none of the above work, i would say there is a good chance the barrel is knackered through shooting it with oil in the barrel. I hope for your sake this is not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 shooting it with small ammounts of oil is fine, i doubt very very much the barrel is knackered, i think its more likely one of the above mentioned things. or maybe ruger syndrome.....god forbid.....but the 77's are meant to be much better, and certainly the one i tried was good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 So heres the question:- Are they right, they also seemed to imply the s/steel barrel played a role in this??? - Do you think the bullet is getting marked going in or coming out?? - If it is marked going in can anything be fone to fix it. I may get some time tomorrow to try the Eley Big Dog After 6000 rds i have swapped to solid ammo for the reason that the hollow point was being flattened on one side when it was being loaded .Mines the 10/22 semmi To solve this take to a gunsmith if you intend using HPs .Do it yourself and your extraction claw might not function Apparently cleaning a rimmy regulary dose'nt help accurracy but hinders it as the build up of wax is a good thing in the rifle flutes. I don't think this type of gun as a floating barrel and as i don't own one i don't know so i'm not sure as mine certainly does'nt. I do know that because it is American it comes with a heavy trigger (6 lbs pull?) Have you had it altered ? S/S is harder wearing so i don't understand what material as to do with acurracy but if the barrel is a floated type then a sheet of A4 paper should slide easily down between barrel and stock all the way up to the breach when your in your prefered firing position and yes don,t touch it when firing. Ammo lets these guns down and you hav'nt left any indication as to what your experience is other than to say your kit was accurate once but its not now . For me to procede further i need more of a background to be of any help i'm afraid Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Hi guys. Thanks for the pointers. deadeye ive I did get the trigger altered just after I bought it. I have it 3 yrs Mainly use Winchester subs and Lazers, like them both but have alway felt Lazer best. But recently, as said earlier getting I fell groups worse, I think, unless its me :*) Finding it hard to get a wind less day to really test it. By the way I am shooting of a bi-pod?? will that make any dfference? Should I make up a bag of sand to forend and butt? Tried CCi stingers really **** in my gun. CCi CB longs, very dirty but were just used with my son to shoot tin cans, short range. Just bought 50 Eley subs but haven't tried them yet. Barrel from tip to breach is I think 19" plus moderater (Can I ask you a question? Do you measure the barrel from muzzel tip to where it fits the breach, or is it where the rim of the bullet sit, which is inside the breach?? Hope I explained this OK?) Not floating barrel - was thinking of adjusting it today but it is tight to the barrel, no way you will get paper down between barrel and stock. So I am not sure what to do. I think I will leave it. (How would you do it??) (could you put a small washer in between the 2 fixing screws to hold to breach/barrel up of the stock a little, sounds a bit jerry but may be easier than cutting down the stock) PS the stock is synthetic. The magazine is a flush plastic bannana type and If I am correct, you can't adjust them like the steel type The bulets are marked on the bottom left side. Nick when I said in my earier post about the mag..... I meant to say magnum as in 22. My moderater is an AU I think, I'll check for sure but my internet connection cable is damaged so if I check not the link will disconnect, not that's jerry Moderater - I have never cleaned it as I believe it is hard to put together. It does have a rod with it deadeye ive I will put the rod through it this afernoon. Am I right to assume if there is anything wrong with it the rod would hit it on the way through?? Scope Deben Hawk 3.5-10 42mm. Never has had a knock, that I am aware of. Two more questions: 1. Should I consider shortening the barrel to 16"? Would this help and still give me 70-100 yrd range?? 2. When shooting, does it matter where your hands are on the forend of the stock? E.g. close to the trigger or nearer the bi-pod, will that effect the group? Ok I hope this give more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 you can use the washer technique to check if floating the barrel would help, however it is not a good fix long term, if it does shoot better once not touching the stock, then you have to remove material around the barrel, the only way i can think of is sand paper, even though its synthetic, should still work. but i dont own a synthetic so cant comment from experiance. im affrad your going to have to just experiment, take the scope off and use it on another gun which is known to be accurate, if it makes the accuracy go to pieces then scope is at fault, if not then scope is in the clear. take silencer off, shoot groups tighten up all the screws, give it a clean, do everything you can to it i dont think the magazine thing is an issue, 22mag is not a v accurate round in general, so its pretty hard to tell if its shooting well or not. but yours isnt 22mag anyway. clean bolt face remove and re mount scope im running out of idea's normally after trying the above i have found a sollution to the problem my last sollution is you sell it and buy a cz sorry i cant be more helpful mate, you just need to try everything, something is at fault, its just a very long process of trial and error to find it. another note, are you shooting this gun from a bench or from prone with a rear rest? becuase if your not then its difficult to give a fair idea of accuracy. if the barrel isnt floated pressure on it shouldnt affect it, certainly not to the extent that your talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Nick, shooting off a bi-pod with no back rest. I am going to make up a couple of sand bags to bench rest it off. This aternoon I did some checks, all screws OK. On the moderater, Which is an AU jet - Z. The insides seem to be fine but the end cap which keeps all the guts in was about a 1/2 to 3/4 turn slack which I guess may have introduced some vibration into the system?? What do you think?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 it might well be that it just didnt give a consistant harmonic to the barrel, this results in it shooting all over the place, its the same effect that a semi floated barrel has, or you putting your hand on the barrel just gota keep on checking things mate, eventually you will find the weak link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 The insides seem to be fine but the end cap which keeps all the guts in was about a 1/2 to 3/4 turn slack which I guess may have introduced some vibration into the system?? What do you think?? Big dog YES , It'll make a huge difference in fact only being slightly loose will make a difference. If you purchase a Brand new gun with a floating barrel then you'll be able to run a sheet of paper all the way easily down to the breach and as you can't your barrel is'nt meant to float .LEAVE IT ALONE How ever the harmonics of the barrel will interact with the stock so once zero'd then leave it on .I have never known one of my attaching screws come loose so nothing should change if the right amount of torque is used and you and you alone can determine that. My understanding of barrel lenght is from where rifling starts to where it ends at the muzzle. As for shortening ,I think it depends on the rate of twist.......Gunsmith Territory i, m afraid I'd be surprised if it improves accuracy As said before its a process of elimination. The silencer will be packed with crud ,so long as none is in the way of the flight path there will be no problem .The efficiency to diffuse noise is affected however. I f you want to confirm bullet deflection with it on then simply run a black marker pen around the inside of the exit hole and observe after firing each shot My bullets get marked at 2.00 posistion and either the breach needs a few 1000th " taking off the inner diameter or i my magazine spring is to fierce As peck said ........Load your bullets by hand to see if this improves things Oil in the barrel is a BIG no no When fired The pressures generated are to high for the guns design. My advice big dog is practice zeroing with your desired in the field shooting posistion .A by-pod should not make any difference only if your zeroing on wood and then shooting on grass lets say and put your hands where you feel most comfortable and consistant. Can you get Eley Tenex Ultimate Eps, they are about as consistant a round as you can get and would eliminate dodgy ammo from the equasion.Shoot tight groups with these babies would prove your set up ok .........It would then be just a matter of finding a cheaper alternative Apologies if i've missed owt Good luck Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 One more thing Being over zealous with maintenence on a rimmy will do it no good at all ,especially to the Muzzle and Crown areas . Once zero'd then leave it ,basic maintenence only Ive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 deadeye ive Thanks for all the tips. I hope to get home early today so if the weather suits I will try it out with the tightened moderater and see if this helps. I will post results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Got out today to test if the slack moderator cap was the proplem. Check out the photo links I posted in "sporting pictures" (Zero in) I put them on Imageshack. They seem to be a bit large and slow to download but then get small once down??:lol:?????????????? I wish I could get an easier way to do it but everything else I try don't work :*) Take a look and tell me what you think of those groups?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peck Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 good shooting Big Dog, glad you got it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 certainly looks good enough for a bit of bunny bashing looks sorted to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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