Is anybody bothered

[Guest topshot_2k]

Topshot modern steel will do the job as long as people do not shoot out of range ( 40 yard with standard loads) and up the shot size to at least a no 4. If you want to shoot beyond that steel will kill well out to 50 yards if you use high performance cartridges no 3 + pellets and the right choke system. I patterned some high performance shells ( gamebore mammoths no 3s ) a few months ago against thick polythene bags on a very cold day. The pellets ripped through 2 layers of the sacks and embedded themselves almost out of sight into the wooden back plate. The range was 50 yards . Pellets going at such speeds to do this are more than a match for any duck , pheasant or pigeon at that range.

 

Range is only one issue, if lead is banned then you suggest our shoot use #3/4 steel shot in heavily wooded areas? what about the wads for our livestock to eat? Many clay grounds banned steel for safety reasons.

 

Steel over penetrates as your test suggest, it doesnt dissipate its energy like lead. its kind of like comparing full metal jacket bullets to soft points in terms of how energy is transferred. I have shot geese with steel and the pellets have gone right through and not killed it cleanly.

[Guest topshot_2k]

topshot,

 

Can you get an invitation to go to the meeting on the lead shot ban?

 

You would be a good spokesman for all PW members, I like someone who speaks the truth.

 

if only, people speak about steel shot as if range/pattern is the only importance.

[BlaserF3]

Blazer can i ask you a question . Have you used steel shells in the past year now the good quality shells are available such as gamebore 32 gr loads ?

 

I have never fired a steel shot cartridge in my life, I only shoot clays and the last living thing I shot was a pigeon over twenty five years ago.

 

You lot can shoot what you feel is best but lead is by far the most ballistically efficient shot and has been for over 300 years and now there are people who want to ban it just to prove they are "Green".

 

I hope you all fight for your rights with a bit more passion when they start to ban all guns, because steel is just the thin edge of the wedge.

[anser2]

Well I suggest before you make a lot of the statments you have done in this thread try some and see how you get on. If it performs badly then you have every right to fight against it until then its best to keep quiet about something you have never tryed. Its a bit like a kid at the dinner table kicking and crying that he does not like sprouts ( I did when i was about 5 , but love them today) and refuses to try them.

Edited April 5, 2010 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

Well I suggest before you make a lot of the statments you have done in this thread try some and see how you get on. If it performs badly then you have every right to fight against it until then its best to keep quiet about something you have never tryed. Its a bit like a kid at the dinner table kicking and crying that he does not like sprouts ( I did when i was about 5 , but love them today) and refuses to try them.

 

Why should I try something that is inferior to lead

[poontang]

Why should I try something that is inferior to lead

 

Because then you could make an informed judgement?

[berettaman]

I have never fired a steel shot cartridge in my life, I only shoot clays and the last living thing I shot was a pigeon over twenty five years ago.

 

You lot can shoot what you feel is best but lead is by far the most ballistically efficient shot and has been for over 300 years and now there are people who want to ban it just to prove they are "Green".

 

I hope you all fight for your rights with a bit more passion when they start to ban all guns, because steel is just the thin edge of the wedge.

 

See now that does get stuck in my throat the" GREEN" issue am i the only one who thinks its just a con to raise more revenue now they have shot the goose that layed the golden egg (smokers) less smokers less drinkers in pubs cos they are banned i know lets dream up green issuse to replace those lost taxes eg why are we paying through the nose in tax for petrol in the name of being green when you have countries the size of america sticking their collective fingers up at keyoto and saying we will burn as much as we can damn well afford and to hell with the planet what difference is a country this size going to make ,non,its all a revenue collection exercise.now shooting is getting screwed with the same rhetoric cr*p

[poontang]

See now that does get stuck in my throat the" GREEN" issue am i the only one who thinks its just a con to raise more revenue now they have shot the goose that layed the golden egg (smokers) less smokers less drinkers in pubs cos they are banned i know lets dream up green issuse to replace those lost taxes eg why are we paying through the nose in tax for petrol in the name of being green when you have countries the size of america sticking their collective fingers up at keyoto and saying we will burn as much as we can damn well afford and to hell with the planet what difference is a country this size going to make ,non,its all a revenue collection exercise.now shooting is getting screwed with the same rhetoric cr*p

 

I'm not sure how the banning of lead would raise more revenue?

[BlaserF3]

Because then you could make an informed judgement?

 

Are you trying to tell me that steel is more efficient than lead through a shotgun?

 

May I suggest that you swot up on the facts and figures.

[MC]

Are you trying to tell me that steel is more efficient than lead through a shotgun?

 

May I suggest that you swot up on the facts and figures.

 

 

Modern steel cartridges are AS effective as lead if you follow the guidelines and go up a couple of sizes. A no.4 steel shotload is as effective as the same weight charge of no.6 lead.

 

Some of the modern steel cartridges as better than some of the lead ones you can buy. And as for the littering the countryside issue, Gambore have been producing a fibre wad steel cartridge for several years now.

[poontang]

You lot can shoot what you feel is best but lead is by far the most ballistically efficient shot and has been for over 300 years and now there are people who want to ban it just to prove they are "Green".

 

That's not strictly true though is it?

I think you'll find ITM pretty much as good as lead and Hevi-shot probably better.

Granted the cost of both are prohibitive at the moment, but as i've said before that's simply down to supply and demand. If lead is banned then cartridge manufactureres will have to respond to market forces or face going out of business themselves. Obviously steel would be the cheapest alternative and to date the manufacturers have concentrated mainly where there's a market i.e. heavy wildfowling ammunition. Some of the lighter shells produced at the moment are perfectly good for close clays but i'd agree they're not up to a decent sporting layout. However, i'm sure if a ban on lead were to come into force the manufacturers would be developing steel that could more than cope with longer targets.

[BlaserF3]

This http://shotshell.drundel.com/steel.htm is what I found for easy comparison.

 

How much recoil can you stand before you've had enough ?

 

Why do we argue amongst ourselves too?

 

If lead is banned shooting will never ever be the same again and how many untruths had been told about it.

 

It's like I said before there is no scientific evidence that lead shot causes harm in the UK.

[poontang]

Are you trying to tell me that steel is more efficient than lead through a shotgun?

 

May I suggest that you swot up on the facts and figures.

 

Interesting comment from someone who admits to never having shot steel in his life.

 

May i suggest you try steel, as i have, then make an informed judgement.

 

As for facts and figures...........well they're ok on paper, but unless you're actually prepared to find out for yourself you'll never REALLY know.

[BlaserF3]

pootang,

 

I can see that I am wasting my time with your remarks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=

[MC]

This http://shotshell.drundel.com/steel.htm is what I found for easy comparison.

 

How much recoil can you stand before you've had enough ?

 

Why do we argue amongst ourselves too?

 

If lead is banned shooting will never ever be the same again and how many untruths had been told about it.

 

It's like I said before there is no scientific evidence that lead shot causes harm in the UK.

 

 

By posting that link it actually shows that a 30g load of 4's in steel is better than the same load of lead 6's, More striking energy and better pattern. What more do you need?

 

Recoil can easily be dealt with either using semi auto or recoil reducer fitted to a traditional gun.

[poontang]

By posting that link it actually shows that a 30g load of 4's in steel is better than the same load of lead 6's, More striking energy and better pattern. What more do you need?

 

Recoil can easily be dealt with either using semi auto or recoil reducer fitted to a traditional gun.

 

Exactly, good link though, thanks for putting it up!!

 

The only 'downside' is that as steel patterns tighter you have to be more precise with shot placement. Not such a bad thing!

[BlaserF3]

Why not try it on a clay ground and see what happens, if the owner will let you.

[MC]

Why not try it on a clay ground and see what happens, if the owner will let you.

 

 

I have used steel for clays and they were fine. The elite who are kicking off about it being "****" at long range are incorrect and ill informed. Your link proves that.

 

Also clays do not need to be miles away to be difficult, The last FITASC shoot at Hepworth showed that. There were plenty of the closer birds missed and I am sure that the Essex Masters this coming weekend will also have some very close and very deceptive clays.

[BlaserF3]

I would like to know the velocity of the steel compared to the lead shot. It must be very high and probably unshootable by many.

 

It's a pity that you do not read articles written by Tim Woodhouse on steel shot then you would realise how wrong you are.

[mudpatten]

Now that the rational and logical arguments put forward by BASC through the good offices of David Illsley, Christopher Graffius and the other supporters of reasoned argument on this forum appear to have won the day, I feel I should remark on something unrelated to the original topic.

 

As a BASC member I really must thank David and Christopher for taking up so much of their own time, not only at a weekend but also on a Bank Holiday, to fight the corner of common sense.

 

Such dedication and customer service is very rare in this day and age. Thank you for your sterling efforts on my behalf. Well done BASC!

[anser2]

Blazer analyse the tables you have provided and you will find steel compares quite well with lead as long as you use pellet sizes 2 sizes larger for steel than you would in lead.

 

loads 1 1\8 oz or 32 gr

 

Lead.............Steel

250..............212 Pellet count

2.3...............3.4 Energy

70 %............83% Pattern

Long ...........short Shot string

 

 

the shot size differences means that the lead has more pellets , but the fact that steel patterns tighter than lead almost cancels out the advantage of lead ( 13 % by the table tighter steel pattern ). the larger no 3 steel pellet a lot more energy than lead has more energy than the steel no 6. Short shot strings are considered much better balisticaly and in this again the steel scores better than lead.

 

In short the tables show that , provided you up your shot size steel is at least comparable with lead. I will concede that its not as good at very long range as lead unless you use one of the after chokes when again the performance again comes very close to lead. I suspect that even if steel cartridges were free and guaranteed to kill every time you shot it you would still be against its use ? I want to shooting to still be around in the next 100 years and if we refuse to change some of outr shooting habbits of old it will not be. Of that i am sure.

 

As for recoil steel is a little higher , but no more than a 1 1\4 oz lead load. Use a semi- auto and the recoil will be less than a s\s gun.

Edited April 5, 2010 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

Now that the rational and logical arguments put forward by BASC through the good offices of David Illsley, Christopher Graffius and the other supporters of reasoned argument on this forum appear to have won the day, I feel I should remark on something unrelated to the original topic.

 

As a BASC member I really must thank David and Christopher for taking up so much of their own time, not only at a weekend but also on a Bank Holiday, to fight the corner of common sense.

 

Such dedication and customer service is very rare in this day and age. Thank you for your sterling efforts on my behalf. Well done BASC!

 

So you would be happy to see lead banned would you?

 

I just cannot believe some peoples response to a ban when there is no need for one.

[poontang]

I would like to know the velocity of the steel compared to the lead shot. It must be very high and probably unshootable by many.

 

It's a pity that you do not read articles written by Tim Woodhouse on steel shot then you would realise how wrong you are.

 

According to your link,

 

Velocity measured at 3ft from muzzle:

Lead.....1330 fps

Steel.....1365 fps

 

An extra 35 fps. Hardly life threatening

 

Can't say i've read any Tim Woodhouse stuff. Maybe another link?

[anser2]

I can not find a link to Tim Woodhouse 's article , but top Dutch clay shooter's do not aggree with him .

 

Quote "Tim Woodhouse can write that, but the opposite is true. In Holland there is a large group of shooters that shoot with Gamebore White Gold Steel 28grms, they are allowed on this shooting ground. We shoot targets far beyond 25 and 35 yards.

 

On our shooting ground we once tested on what distance we could hit a teal bird. More than one person could hit the target on a distance of 95 meters, again and again. The sun disappaered on that moment, so we could not walk further. The distance called is the distance from shooter to throwing machine... Normal guns, normal chokes (varying from LM to IM).

 

I know lead is better than steel, the kills on distance look better, but please come to Holland to test steel cartridges on one of our shooting grounds and I will assure you that you will never believe Tim

 

If you want to read more here is the link

 

http://www.claysporting.com/index.php?name...pic&p=37619

Edited April 5, 2010 by anser2

[anser2]

Blazer quote " So you would be happy to see lead banned would you?

 

I just cannot believe some peoples response to a ban when there is no need for one. "

 

 

I sometimes use lead and sometimes steel at the moment , but mainly lead only because its 80P a box cheaper. When the future of shooting is threatened by public opinion and mounting scientific evidence shows it is a problem I will be happy to give it up. Their far more serious threats to shooting than having to change over from lead to steel.

Edited April 5, 2010 by anser2