Is anybody bothered

[al4x]

THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR SHOOTING and CONSERVATION

CONFIRMED MINUTES OF THE COUNCIL MEETING

HELD AT MARFORD MILL, ROSSETT, WREXHAM,

ON THURSDAY 21ST MAY, 2009

Page 4 of 6

 

 

B.5 Lead in ammunition

 

 

 

This matter was added to the agenda by the permission of the meeting. In light of the findings of the Idaho Conference (May 2008), a published recommendation by the CIC General Assembly in May 2009, and established practice in a number of countries, particularly in Scandinavia, the Chief Executive sought, and was granted, a mandate for staff to engage in active dialogue with all other stakeholders with a view to BASC’s currently published position on lead being reviewed by Council in the light of clear recommendations in September. For the time being, the matter of lead must be handled sensitively and BASC must seek to work with partners to increase understanding of the issues, develop the use of alternative technologies and identify effective solutions.

[David BASC]

My posts on the toxicity of lead were not intended to 'teach grandma to suck eggs' sorry if it came over as such but as a human biologist and someone who spent years as a water chemist, and working for the water industry I just want us to see and accept the lead issue in context.

 

I was in the water industry when the scare over aluminium broke - trust me the consequences of that (had all the early 'research' proven to be true) would have been far greater effects on all of us than a lead ban ever will...but that is history.

 

Turning to lead shot, I will mirror Christopher's post, and as someone who has eaten shot game for longer than I care to remember sometimes...I am (I think) healthy and not (too) mad.

 

By the same token I freely give my three children shot game and venison to eat and trust me I would never ever do anything intentionally that could cause any of them any harm.

 

Speaking as a shooter, and someone who introduces others to shooting as often as possible I am thankful that the top shooting organisation is at the front of the lead issue, and frankly so should you!

 

David

[vampire]

nope, been shooting for nearly 18 years, cant see me giving it up soon. now if youd like to go back and read what i said -

 

if you read the title it says "IS ANYBODY BOTHERED, Lead shot ban" so i answered a simple question - no, i am not bothered, assuming that bothered means its annoying and irritating me. now if the title had read "do you support a ban on lead shot" i would have replied no, as i dont agree with it.

 

you will see that i dont agree with lead restrictions. however, every week on this forum (or it seems like it) we have another major catastrophe which is going to affect shooting, the same as reading the papers every day tells me that the earth is about to explode/immigrants are going to stab me in my sleep/drinking water has riddled me with cancer, etc.

 

now, it is my choice whether or not i buy into all the hype and start jumping around like a maniac venting my spleen, or if i sit here thinking that theres really very little that i can do about it now, so decide not to let it bother me as i have more than enough to worry about. and considering that at the moment its still in the early stages of being looked into, by a group which is full of representatives of the whole shooting industry (not just basc) i doubt ill have too much to worry about when the findings come out; but if i do, then THAT is the time to be bothered, not now when they havnt even announced anything!

 

AS ABOVE

 

Why you have to slag off your fellow shooters is beyond me,i for one am not a muppet just because i have not had a sgc very long ,i go out at least twice a week after pigeons and rabbits and any other vermin on the 6000 acres i have to shoot over ,i use steel as a lot of what i shoot go to local bird of prey centres,one lead pellet would kill a hawk :( so i only use steel to save any doubt as to what was shot with what.

When and if the time comes to cast my vote and stand up and be counted i will be there to support shooting in any way i can,because i enjoy my HOBBY and wish to continue to have the freedom of choice,but has nothing to do with people like you who jump up and down and throw their toys out the pram just to make a noise does nothing to help anyone or shooting.It was after all just a poll to see what others thought about something that has not been decided yet,so i gave my opinion,if i had realised at the time i had to prepare for a full report i wouldnt have bothered,cause i am not,until i have to be bothered,that after all is why we have people like those from BASC to fight our fight,because your shouting at others and i aint bothered,so we need BASC to voice an opinion on our behalf .

Edited April 1, 2010 by vampire

[Dunkield]

I don't think any of the organisations are going to roll over and die on this, but it may be worth reminding the "that's it I'm off" type posters that lead has already been removed from paint, already been banned for use in fishing weights, banned from use in production of electrical equipment and so on. Taking a realistic view it's ban from pellets and cartridges is almost inevitable, it is just a matter of time.

[Chard]

one lead pellet would kill a hawk

 

 

Is that a scientific fact? I suspect it would if it hit it between the eyes, but I'm not wholly convinced otherwise.

[mossy835]

i would not be happy with the ban on lead.but im sure one day it will come in.untill then ill keep on with the lead.

[vampire]

 

Is that a scientific fact? I suspect it would if it hit it between the eyes, but I'm not wholly convinced otherwise.

 

Yep fact, if you believe the autopsy report,the bird had been fed a pigeon that was shot with lead and not steel as stipulated by the owners,and one lead pellet was found that had been digested by the bird,game over.

[supadonk]

Has any one got enough lead to take us up to the 21 st of December 2012, ? that,ll do me fine.

[Popgun]

I think it was a disaster banning lead for wildfowling there are to many ducks wounded and lost and to many geese hit and lost i've been to the most shot over parts of poole harbour trying to find lead shot and never found 1 and i've allways fed my ferrets shot pigeons and rabbits with no health problems i think it's about time we stood up to these antis who are trying to ban our shooting by the back door i'll stick with the BASC for now.

[Boromir]

Yep fact, if you believe the autopsy report,the bird had been fed a pigeon that was shot with lead and not steel as stipulated by the owners,and one lead pellet was found that had been digested by the bird,game over.

 

And so because they found one lead pellet they suddenly stopped and said "Thats its thats what killed it job done lads". Could of been anything that killed it. And if its fact prove it.

[Jimbo57]

I think that BASC are in a real Catch-22 situation here.

 

When it was proposed that lead shot would be banned for wildfowling 15 years ago, BASC opposed it and delayed it and gave all the reasons why it should not happen.

 

But there was never any doubt that it would happen. No matter how hard BASC and everyone else had fought, it was totally inevitable that lead shot would be banned for wildfowling. No question of that and nobody doubts it now.

 

But when lead shot was banned for wildfowling, BASC took the stick for "losing the fight", despite the fact that it was a fight that nobody could have won. They lost a lot of members over that and some wildfowlers still bare grudges.

 

So what do they do this time. Nobody but an ostrich can believe that in 10 years time we will still be able to use lead shot for any shooting. That is a simple fact. lead is a poison and it will be banned. Wallies like the CA might make some empty gestures at this stage but they know as well as you and I that they are on a losing campaign. If BASC fights against what they know will be a losing battle, then when all lead shot is banned, they will be seen to have "lost" and this forum will be full of numpties criticising them for losing a battle that they (or anybody else) could never have won.

 

Surely it is better to wake up and smell the coffee and support BASC in trying to get the best deal possible and to do all the research to try to improve the range and the price of non-toxic alternatives?

[Kent Militia]

If BASC fights against what they know will be a losing battle, then when all lead shot is banned, they will be seen to have "lost" and this forum will be full of numpties criticising them for losing a battle that they (or anybody else) could never have won.

 

I wouldn't criticise them for losing an issue if they fought hard for it, I only criticise people who do nothing while things get banned, if you have had a go at opposing such legislation, no matter the outcome you should be applauded for it. At least you tried to do something about it.

[Whitebridges]

Give or take one hundred and thirty thousand people are members of the BASC. Say, each person pays fifty quid a year membership. I pay full whack BTW as do most. I expect the BASC to fight this stupid idea all the way. From some of the comments on here I am suprised at a lot of "roll over and die" sentiments. Remember that the BASC should represent the views of it's membership. So before they start partaking in research and chairing meetings for DEFRA's goals they should understand exactly where the membership stands on the issue.

 

My recommendation to BASC is to get a thorough cost / benefit analysis from DEFRA detailing why lead should be banned. There will be no case.

 

There is no reason why the membership of BASC or it's leaders should see reason to get involved at this stage. I'm furious they have agreed to chair this thing and for once agree with the sub editor's comments in the ST.

 

Every £ they spend on this will have to be transparent. I hope they account for all the waste of member funds.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Whitebridges

[night owl]

right first of i have not read the whole thread so this may have already been mentioned

first of if lead is banned i will buy a shot maker and reloading gear and reload mine as i do not like steel shot because first i do not find it dispatches birds properly and second i think it is very dangerous .

what concerns me the most is shooting ground game /pests steel has a bad tendency to ricoshay how long is it going to be before some one gets wounded

how are air rifles and live rifles going to be able to take steel bullets or other types of metal and how will it perform

steel can be used through all shotguns as long as a plaz wad is used

[poontang]

It seems to me that it's only a matter of time before a total ban on lead shot. There's no doubt that lead is highly toxic to humans and animals, however a quick search would reveal very few cases of lead poisoning in humans, and the main problems associated with farm animals seem to stem from batteries, ash and fly tipped rubbish.

 

It seems we are all debating alternatives to lead when maybe there is another option.

 

Lead is a poisonous metal present in a variety of commercial products, and as a pollutant from industrial activities. Lead has become an environmental contaminant in many areas of the world, and in many habitat types, both urban and rural. When ingested or inhaled the body 'mistakes' lead for calcium and other beneficial metals and thus incorporates lead into nerve cells and other vital tissues.

 

The above is taken from the Peregrine Fund link posted earlier in the thread.

 

Now i'm no chemist, but calcium protects the body from lead absorbtion. Both calcium and lead are absorbed at the same site in the intestine. Calcium slows down absorbtion of lead into the bloodstream allowing the lead to be excreted before causing damage/poisoning. Obviously the more lead we are exposed to the more calcium we would need to counteract its effects.

 

Here's the clever (stupid?) bit.

 

If calcium is the natural 'enemy' of lead can we not use it to our advantage? Surely it could be alloyed to lead (as in lead calcium batterys) in the same way as antimony? Thereby reducing the toxicity at source and slowing down the absorbtion process if ingested, (thereby giving the lead the chance to be excreted).

 

Like i say i'm no chemist, but who knows maybe i've stumbled on something?? (Though i doubt it)

 

 

Edited April 2, 2010 by poontang

[Vince Green]

Lead shot when fired falls to the ground. Very soon it migrates into the ground where it becomes covered with a protective coating of oxide and becomes effectively inert. Many fields in britain have had clay shoots held on them for decades but the milk from cattle grazed on those fields shows no significantly higher levels of lead. It has been tested many times.

 

Lead salts are toxic to humans and animals but so are the salts of most other metals including steel. Lead from normal shooting activities will not alter the toxicity in the soil.

 

Lead shot ingested by humans or cattle will pass through the gut without causing any real problem. Its not desirable but the levels are low and the body will clear it out so as long as it it not constant day in day out at a high level it should not cause problems.

 

Probably many many times more toxic on most fields are the levels of pesticides and herbicides used in everyday farming.

 

You should fear an environmentalist on a mission. As has been shown recently with global warming, they are willing to corrupt the data to support their case

[webber]

Lead ammunition group to be formed

22 March 2010

 

 

A group is being brought together to advise Defra and the Food Standards Agency (FSA) on issues connected with the use of lead ammunition. The group will consult widely and convene a range of sub-groups involving relevant stakeholders and experts to assist its work. Defra will provide the secretariat and arrangements are being made for a first meeting in April under the chairmanship of John Swift, chief executive of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC).

 

BASC's policy, supported unanimously by its elected council, states: BASC will continue to oppose any unwarranted restrictions on lead shot use. Restrictions must be science-based and proportionate. Debates about possible restrictions must fully involve shooting interests

 

 

John Swift said “The aim of the Lead Ammunition Group is to bring together stakeholders from all interested parties to address a wide range of topics concerning lead ammunition. The group is tasked with identifying any significant threats as well as any perceived threats that are not significant. The group is to advise on options for managing any risks, knowledge gaps and communication issues. It is essential that the sub-groups are as inclusive as possible and balanced and fair in their investigations and findings. At the end of the first year a written progress report will be submitted to Defra and FSA. Our scope is limited to England but the devolved administrations will be kept informed and FSA has a UK-wide remit.

 

The Lead Ammunition Group will be made up of representatives covering shooting, conservation, the gun trade, animal welfare, the rural economy, land use and food health and hygiene.

 

John Swift said “No political party has proposals to further limit the use of lead ammunition. This is an advisory process which will in due course feed into the formulation of future policy after consideration of all the evidence. Defra has initiated the process, but it will be led by stakeholders and we must all ensure that work goes forward on a sound footing.” ENDS

 

Notes to editors:

The working group will include representatives drawn from BASC, the Gun Trade Association, the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the Countryside Alliance, the RSPB, the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, the Universities’ Federation for Animal Welfare, the Institute for Environmental Health, and the Food Standards Agency. Other organisations and experts will be included in specialist subgroups.

 

For more information please call the BASC press office on 01244 573031

[Blackpowder]

I think it was a disaster banning lead for wildfowling there are to many ducks wounded and lost and to many geese hit and lost i've been to the most shot over parts of poole harbour trying to find lead shot and never found 1 and i've allways fed my ferrets shot pigeons and rabbits with no health problems i think it's about time we stood up to these antis who are trying to ban our shooting by the back door i'll stick with the BASC for now.

I'm with you Popgun on that, years ago I talked to an old gunner from Holy Island (Lindisfarne) who maintained that within 6 weeks of lead shot landing on the slake it was rendered safe naturally. He most likely would have had this information from a scientific source as the man was well respected in ornitholigcal circles due to his knowledge of the Islands bird life. The ban on lead for wildfowl was as much political as opposed to conservation.

 

Blackpowder

[Christopher Graffius]

As far as I can see we all agree on three points:

 

1. All of us, in an ideal world, wish to continue using lead ammunition.

 

2. No effective and affordable lead substitute has been developed for use as ammunition.

 

3. Lead is a poison but its impact as ammunition on people, wildlife and land is unclear.

 

A quick look round the world shows that the debate on the future of lead ammunition is hotting up:

 

1. Lead has been either banned for shooting over wetlands or shooting wildfowl across most of Europe and in the US

 

2. Some countries, particularly in Scandinavia have banned lead for game shooting, for example all driven game in Denmark is now shot with non-toxic loads.

 

3. Some states in the US have banned lead in rifle ammunition for hunting. Some have since rescinded the ban.

 

4. The recent Idaho conference brought together for the first time animal and human health experts and the papers submitted have caused further international concern

 

5. The international hunting body CIC has expressed its concern and its desire that shooting organisations both nationally (such as BASC) and regionally (such as FACE) should engage with this debate.

 

6. The European Reach initiative looking at contaminants and poisons in water is considering lead and its recommendations will inform European law.

 

7. In Britain agricultural land in food production may have a shooting ban over it from food buyers because of the fear of elevated lead levels in food.

 

Given the above it's not surprising that Government should convene an advisory committee, what may be surprising - particularly for the antis - is that no party has any plans to legislate on this and the committee will be chaired by the CEO of Britain's largest shooting association aand have such strong shooting representation - BASC, CA, GCWT, GTA.

 

The committee will need to base any recommendations on evidence. If I've interpreted him correctly, AL4X maintains that the evidence from the Idaho conference is all propaganda funded by the antis, but he hasn't answered my request for evidence of this. I'd appreciate - and will feed into BASC - your assessments of the evidence. So a question:

 

How many of you have actually read the Idaho proceedings, rather than glance at it, and what do you think of it?

 

Christopher

[BlaserF3]

Do you really trust BASC http://www.claysporting.com/index.php?name...p;p=38440#38440

[webber]

Do you really trust BASC http://www.claysporting.com/index.php?name...p;p=38440#38440

 

 

I trust them far more than I would ever trust any or all of the other organisations that purport to represent the interests of shooters.

I won't name them as that would lead to the thread being either pulled or closed.

 

webber

[BlaserF3]

No doubt we will find out, one way or the other, before long.

[BlaserF3]

I cannot understand why the CPSA has not been involved in the group, why just BASC?

 

The sheer volume of cartridges shot just by clayshooters should have been one of the reasons for them to be involved.

Edited April 2, 2010 by BlaserF3

[anser2]

There is a lot rubbish talked about steel shells. In the past they were not that good , but in a steel proof gun modern steel shells are almost as good as lead. Its only when you are realy pushing your range that you will find lead has the edge. I often use steel in 4s and 3s ( Gamebore ) while pigeon shooting and am very impresed with the results. Keep your range under 45 yards and use larger shot sizes than you would in lead and they will do the job fine. Shooting steel need a rethink about the way you shoot. Its fast , faster than most lead. The old rule about pattern gives out before penertration is reversed. To counter this use big pellets. And think about super chokes if you need to take long shots. I find a 3.5 inch load of BBB with a turkey choke does a very good job on high geese. If you get poor results its most likley its the guy behind the gun thats the reason. The only reason I do not use it all the time is cost. I pay about £4 a box for lead no 6s and £5.50 for steel.

 

As for clay shooters , the range problem is simple . Move the traps a few yards closer.

Edited April 2, 2010 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

anser2,

 

May I suggest that you take the time to read what has been posted, then wind your neck back in.

 

This is not about steel shot it's about the possible ban on lead shot.

 

Why do you always get one