Rifle scopes for centre fires

[dunganick]

as said all the listed rounds use .224 size bullets

 

the difference between the 222 and 223 is the case dimensions

 

the 222 came first, then someone developed the 222mag, however the millitary then developed the 223 from the 222 mag to use in their gas operated guns.

 

to my knoledge the name 222 or 223 has no relation to anything on the round (not certain) but both the 222 and 223 use the same size projectiles .224

 

i think the hornet when very young briefly used .223 diameter bullets, however i cannot be certain as i wasnt around all those years ago, it is most certainly .224 these days.

 

there is a cartridge called the veirling (spelling?) which is almost identicle to the hornet, but uses .223 sized bullets and has about 10 thou less head space than the hornet.

[whippet.22]

Can you elabroate a bit more on the difference in case sizes between the .222 & .223 .reason being is that in NI they don't like the..223 in civilian hands.

 

If thats the case then can you load a .223 in a .222 gun or vica versa and still fire it

 

Cheers

 

Ive

Nope you can't fire them in other guns even though the .223 is based on the .222 cartridge.

Although there is only 0.060 of an inch OVERALL difference in length between the 2 cartridges, the .223 has a longer case body and shorter neck which means it has a slightly greater powder capacity giving it an advantage of about 300 feet per second. At the usual foxing ranges this is a pretty minimal advantage, the only major advantage that .223 has over .222 is that there is a wider variety of ammo available and also cheap military surplus ammo if you do a lot of range work.

 

I don't wanna be mistaken for an expert here so I'll admit half my info is from memory and the other half from a google search for the dimensions and speed difference.

[kip270]

The 222 Remington was introduced by Remington in 1950 for their 722 bolt action rifle which was later superseded by the current 700 series. For a short time, the Remington Model 760 slide action repeater was also available in this caliber. Much of the credit for the 222 Remington is due to Mike Walker, a longtime Remington employee. The Cartridge became very popular with the benchrest competitors in the 1970's and varmint hunters also found its performance excellent. But by the early 1990's the 222 Remington had lost much of its popularity to the 223 Remington.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 223 Remington first appeared in 1957 as an experimental military cartridge for the Armalite AR-15 assault rifle. In 1964, it was officially adopted by the U.S. Army as the 5.6mm Ball cartridge M193. It is used in the selective fire M16 rifle which is based on the original AR15 design. The cartridge was the work of Robert Hutton, who was technical editor for Guns & Ammo magazine and had a rifle range in Topanga Canyon California. One of the requirements for the cartridge was for the projectile have a retained velocity in excess the speed of sound (about 1080 fps at sea level) at 500 yards, something you could not achieve with the 222 Remington. Working with Gene Stoner of Armalite, Bob Hutton designed a case slightly longer than the 222 and had Sierra make a 55 grain boattail bullet. This combination met the design requirements. All this was documented in the 1971 issue of Guns & Ammo Annual.

 

Originally an alternate military cartridge, the 223 (5.6 x 45mm) is now the official U.S. and NATO military round. It should also be noted that NATO forces, including the U.S., have standardized a new 5.56 x 45mm round with a heavy bullet and the M193 is no longer standard.

 

SORRY FOR BEING A GEEK

 

Schmit/bender or zeiss for scopes

Edited December 4, 2005 by kip270

[deadeye ive]

Nope you can't fire them in other guns even though the .223 is based on the .222 cartridge.

Although there is only 0.060 of an inch OVERALL difference in length between the 2 cartridges,

Only length and not diameter then........

 

.060" is really miniscule although I note the differences in neck lths.

 

You learn something new every day .........Thanks Fellas

 

Ive

[Big Dog]

Armalite AR-15 assault rifle - this may also be a reason it is not liked in NI. The Armalite has a very negative ring to it here, many service people died to it.

 

 

On a brighter note - I have found your input to the scope great. Zeiss seem to be in my focus at the moment.

 

As a final parting shot - reflecting back on someone elses wisdom in this post (getting the balance of reticule for field and range), I will use it mostly for vermin but will hopefully use it at the range (2 distances 100 and 200 mtrs. There is a 300 also but I think this is pushing it??

 

What reticule would be good. Personal I have a Hawke Mil-dot and its OK but I think it would be to thick for a .222??

 

So thickness and #

[Dunkield]

You can't go wrong with a Zeiss, the backup is superb.

 

I like 4a reticles but they are too thick (in S&B's anyway) for any serious range work, but that isn't a priority to me.

 

Mildot should be fine and will help with holdover/under etc, I am not sure if the European scope makers have taken them up as much as the Americans.

 

 

 

Don't forget some decent rings and bases BD, I overlooked that expense when I was buying my setup and it can be quite a nasty shock if you are used to air rifles etc :*)

 

For Tikka's optilock's are the best but Warnes are also very good too and definitely worth a look.

[Sargeant Bang]

Hi guys. I have been starting to explore some information on rifle scopes on one of my other post (At the range at last).

 

deadeye ive, stuartp & dunganick have all been very helpful in making me aware how little I know about scopes for centre fires; Thanks guys; I mean that in a positive way, I need to do more home work.

 

I feel it is time to bring this topic to a new post to expand the debate. So please engage and help get me zeroed on the information, jargon and top tips if you get my jist?

 

Quick summary:

Everything is 3 prices in N. Ireland - It must be because someone has to row a boat across the sea each time we want something; Bl**dy ripe off. As one of you guys rightfully stated we are part of the UK.

 

Anyway, I have family in the USA and may think that one option is to buy my scope in the states for economical reasons. I am finding some technical term confusing and I have added them on here for you help. If you have any good site on scope talk post it on a reply please. Here goes:

 

POWER X OBJECTIVE LENS @100yds - 2.5-10x50

 

FIELD OF VIEW ft@100yds - 40.3/13.4@2.5x10.8/3.6@10x

 

EYE RELIEF (in/mm) - 3.3/83

 

EXIT PUPIL (mm) - 15@2.5x5@10x

 

CLICK VALUE in@100yds/mm@100m .25/7

 

ADJUSTMENT RANGE in@100yds/m@100m 50/1.4

 

MNTNG. LENGTH (in/mm) 5.9/149

 

I haven't a confident clue; I am just guessing at what these mean.

 

Thanks guys

give me your thought on scopes for centre fires

BD.... the Exit Pupil is pretty much a universally accepted means of quantifying the light gathering ability of a scope or binoculars etc. The optimum figure is 7, although this is fairly theoretical. The pupil of the human eye can accomodate a maximum of 7 however this reduces dramatically with age. So if you're 40 your eye may only operate up to say 5.5, in which case a scope with an ideal exit pupil of 7 (or even higher) would be wasted.

 

It's calculated by dividing the Object lens diameter (say 42mm) by the magnification (say 6mm) so you get 42/6 = 7mm. Therefore your classic stalking scope which is traditionally a 6 x 42 has an exit pupil of 7mm, the maximum a healthy eye can utilise. No accident there though, this is why the 6 x 42 came into exisitence as a classic.

 

Also an 8 x 56 scope will offer the same 7mm Exit Pupil, as 8 is divisible into 56 exactly 7 times.

 

I don't know what 15@2.5x5@10x means, indeed in that form it is meaningless in relation to exit pupil calculation. If the scope is 2.5 with a 50mm objective lens then that equates to a 20 exit pupil, which is utterly useless except from 7 and downwards, unless you're Terminator 3!

 

Anyway, I'm sure you get the drift by now BD. So even a variable scope will simply have one exit pupil figure at it's lowest magnification and then yet another again at it's highest magnification, and obviously the number varies in between the two extremities.

 

Say you have a 3-9 x 50 scope, popular with rimfire and air gunners. This has the following figures... at 3x mag it has 50/3 = 16.6 exit pupil (fine up to 7 and then meaningless after that) AND 50/9 = 5.5 at top magnification (not bad really). It will operate best in low light at about x7.25 though, as this results in an exit pupil of around 7.

[Big Dog]

Sargeant Bang all good stuff M8. I follow most of it but some bit shot over my head. For example:

1. How is 7 determined to be how your eye sees?

2. Explain to me a wee bit more what this means?

3. I am 48 yrs, so can I get it checked??

4. Are you saying that at the lower number of mag e.g. 3 or 4 this is less effective for the eye and that it is better to wind her up to 5 or 6 etc.

 

You know when buying gear you really could waist a lot of ££s b4 you get it right if you didn't know some ot this stuff. So all info really welcomed.

 

Thanks

[Big Dog]

Hello!

 

Just want to make sure the post is in range to get an answer to the above post

[deadeye ive]

You know when buying gear you really could waist a lot of ££s b4 you get it right if you didn't know some ot this stuff. So all info really welcomed.

Big Dog

 

Keep it simple .............Buy the best quality you can afford.

Whats your upper price range??.......This will determine your choice more than anything.Your in a better posistion than most with family in the states

 

 

 

 

My Scope has a 4 - 12 x 40 mag and I shoot with it on 8 ............The higher mag is only a advantage when trying to identify quarry at night and for targeting .

 

A fixed scope would'nt suit my needs ..............

 

As i said this time of year as it's dark early check the light gathering capabilities when visiting your RFD and make this your focal point as opposed to the technical stuff .

 

Take your lamp to the shop as well and see if you can make out definnet objects at long ranges .I sure there are some dark places

 

Ive

[dunganick]

there was a theory i heard about which said using more magnification than you should was good when lamping for identifying the target.

 

the theory goes that you decrease your light gathering ability, so becuase everything is more dull, the bright object in the lamp stands out better, being a greater contrast in light.

 

havent tried it myself, i use 9x no matter what when walking. turn the scope up to 18x when i want to miss something whilst looking very closely at it.

 

magnification is fun, but a good quality fixed power scope cannot be beaten for raw field work.

 

so of course ive just got another variable power scope

[Dunkield]

My Scope has a 4 - 12 x 40 mag and I shoot with it on 8 ............The higher mag is only a advantage when trying to identify quarry at night and for targeting .

 

A fixed scope would'nt suit my needs ..............

Ive,

 

Those statements contradict each other

 

You say you have a zoom, but leave it fixed, but a fixed scope wouldn't suit your needs

 

Why not use binoculars for identifying your target, you shouldn't point a gun at it to do that!

[AndyCM]

Hi All,

 

Taking this out in the next few mins to see if I can get it to work on bambi.

 

My Webpage

 

One useful feature (to confuse the topic further) is the side wheel parallax adjustment - the setting can be seen without moving your head, better that the last scope I had with the parralax adjustment made on the objective lens.

 

It's my Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 (a nice variable zoom magnification.....set on errrr 6x).

 

One good point raised earlier, in that a quality scope will last further into dusk / low light than cheap / average binoculars.

 

When I got this Zeiss scope I soon realised how poor my binoculars were !

 

Cheers

AndyCM

Edited December 7, 2005 by AndyCM

[deadeye ive]

Why not use binoculars for identifying your target, you shouldn't point a gun at it to do that!

 

I lamp Foxes alone most of the time so naturally my lamp is scope mounted .......Once Charlie has been identified using the higher mag if need be ,I proceed to insert my Rifle bolt load a round and get ready to fire...........How reckless of me

 

Nice scope Andy

 

Ive

[Dunkield]

How reckless of me

 

Ive

How irresponsible!

 

Point taken Ive.