Rifle scopes for centre fires

[Big Dog]

Hi guys. I have been starting to explore some information on rifle scopes on one of my other post (At the range at last).

 

deadeye ive, stuartp & dunganick have all been very helpful in making me aware how little I know about scopes for centre fires; Thanks guys; I mean that in a positive way, I need to do more home work.

 

I feel it is time to bring this topic to a new post to expand the debate. So please engage and help get me zeroed on the information, jargon and top tips if you get my jist?

 

Quick summary:

Everything is 3 prices in N. Ireland - It must be because someone has to row a boat across the sea each time we want something; Bl**dy ripe off. As one of you guys rightfully stated we are part of the UK.

 

Anyway, I have family in the USA and may think that one option is to buy my scope in the states for economical reasons. I am finding some technical term confusing and I have added them on here for you help. If you have any good site on scope talk post it on a reply please. Here goes:

 

POWER X OBJECTIVE LENS @100yds - 2.5-10x50

 

FIELD OF VIEW ft@100yds - 40.3/13.4@2.5x10.8/3.6@10x

 

EYE RELIEF (in/mm) - 3.3/83

 

EXIT PUPIL (mm) - 15@2.5x5@10x

 

CLICK VALUE in@100yds/mm@100m .25/7

 

ADJUSTMENT RANGE in@100yds/m@100m 50/1.4

 

MNTNG. LENGTH (in/mm) 5.9/149

 

I haven't a confident clue; I am just guessing at what these mean.

 

Thanks guys

give me your thought on scopes for centre fires

[AndyCM]

Hi Big Dog,

 

I'll try !

 

POWER X OBJECTIVE LENS @100yds - 2.5-10x50

- the reference to 100yards is of no interest here - the scope is a zoom magnification so the image can be at 2.5x magnification (useful for close range or low light) or swist the adjustment and have 3x, 4x, 5x, etc upto 10x. 10x is ok if you are shooting at longer ranges and useful for target shooting (where you generally have a bench or bipod rest. Crank it up to 10x mag and you see less area though).

(I used a 4.5-14x and most of the time it stays on 6x for hunting and 14x if targets)

The 50 is 50mm objective lens - the one nearest the muzzle, and a good size.

 

FIELD OF VIEW ft@100yds - 40.3/13.4@2.5x10.8/3.6@10x

this is the amount of "land" you see - this time at a specific distance (100yards) for 2.5x magnification you will see 40.3 feet (or 13.4metres) across but use 10x magnification and you only see 10.8ft or 3.6metres at 100 yards.

So 2.5x lets you see a bus but 10x only lets you see a car - as you are bringing the object "closer"

 

EYE RELIEF (in/mm) - 3.3/83

- where your eyeball will be to see the best view through the scope 3.3 inches or 83mm from the rear lens - fairly standard and just needs to be taken into account when mounting the scope, then forget it. + you don't want your eye too close as recoil could give you a shiner or cut.

 

EXIT PUPIL (mm) - 15@2.5x5@10x

- don't know !

 

CLICK VALUE in@100yds/mm@100m .25/7

1/4 inch or 7 mm at 100 yards - so the turret "clicks" will move the point of impact by these amounts at 100 yards - again standard - some target scopes have 1/8 inch adjustments, I have never owned or used one.

 

So if when zeroing (at 100 yards) your group is 2 inches low then you need to click up by 8 clicks to get the group on target.

 

ADJUSTMENT RANGE in@100yds/m@100m 50/1.4

don't know

 

MNTNG. LENGTH (in/mm) 5.9/149

guessing at you have a maximum 5.9 inches in the middle of the scope to fit mounts - again looks standard and with compatible mounts away you go.

 

Have I helped or confused you more ?

 

Cheers

AndyCM

Edited December 1, 2005 by AndyCM

[Dunkield]

Nice work Andy.

 

Good luck with this BD,

 

If you go for a Leupold (which are the best deals in the US) I would definitly try and have a look through a few in a shop near you first.

 

I find the eye relief a bit fussy, in that you head has to beexactly in the right place on the stock, but others who own them may want to comment on that.

 

They are about the best selling scope in the States so thousands of 'septics' can't be wrong can they

[Subsonic Flyer]

How many times have we heard "you get what you pay for" and in choosing a scope this is very appropriate. All scopes will do the job, some better than others. As I see it you have a number of cost/quality issues you might want to consider:

 

Cheaper scopes are not built to withstand the recoil of a centre fire rifle and will eventually fail.

 

Cheaper scopes usually do not provide the optical quality of the middle to higher end makes. This affects not only what you see but light gathering qualities etc. If you can’t see it you can’t shoot it.

 

Quality scopes hold their zero. There is nothing more frustrating than spending time on the range to get the zero spot on only to find 10 or 20 shots later or if it suffers a slight knock it’s all over the place.

 

Adjustment is spot on with the better scopes if it states 1/4 “clicks at 100 yards that’s what it is. The cheaper scopes often have a mind of their own.

 

Cheaper scopes are water resistant quality scopes are waterproof.

 

It all comes down to what you can afford and if the cost is an issue I would advise you to spend less on the rifle and more on the scope. I have tried several different makes and believe you can’t beat the European manufacturers for quality. My personal choice is Schmidt & Bender; they are the choice of military snipers and Special Forces who use them in punishing conditions. If its good enough for them...............

SF

[henry d]

Exit pupil is to do with the objective lens in mm ie.56

if you divide that by the magnification,usually 8x you get the number7,which I am reliably informed the best size(generally speaking)for the human eye to use the available light exiting from the scope.

Thats why most fixed scopes are of that range8x56 6x42 and if you can get one with a 30mm tube as opposed to 1 inch/26mm.

I use a 3-12x52 but generally use it screwed to 6 1/2ish.

[Dunkield]

Nice setup SF,

 

Looks like a Steyr Prohunter?

[deadeye ive]

Adjustment is spot on with the better scopes if it states 1/4 “clicks at 100 yards that’s what it is. The cheaper scopes often have a mind of their own.

 

 

 

It all comes down to what you can afford and if the cost is an issue I would advise you to spend less on the rifle and more on the scope.

SF

For a family man with this outside interest cost will always be an issue and from this I speak from experience .

 

£50 is cheap to me but £150-£200 for a rifle scope is alot of money to me but certain scopes in this price range are up to it and will hold their zero and do what the adjustment states ...........But by on-line from the usa to get value for money.

 

Yes Smidts are the Dogs Gonads and so they should be but where limited funds are concerned I would buy a top quality gun and a middle of the road scope with a view to buying a quality Scope at a later date as opposed to the gun.The most critical factors to accurate shooting are the Gun + Ammo(home loading ) combination .These are the Areas where I would concentrate my limited funds .

 

Seeing it but not hitting it at long range would really frustrate me

 

Given unlimited funds then yes it would be a smidt & Bender and 1 day I hope to get one .

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ive

[Subsonic Flyer]

Ive

I hear you on the costs being an issue - I have an agreement with my wife - we work as a team and do it my way - I wish!!!!

 

I believe that most rifles provide acceptable accuracy with careful reloading and until you get to a certain price range you are paying for cosmetics and name.

 

I am prepared to consider second hand and have made two purchases this year that I felt were a good buy. Steyer Prohunter Long Range Heavy Barrel .308 mint condition with less than 100 rounds through it £500 (new £900) and a Schmidt & Bender 3-12 x 50 excellent condition £350 (new £750). These were bought from my local gun shop after some hard negotiation - they even threw in the mounts for the scope!!!

 

Given the choice of new but average or used and quality I would take the used every time.

SF

 

Well spotted Stuart - it’s a Steyer Prohunter in .243

[Big Dog]

Thanks guys. AndyCM good effort I will read up on this. What are Bushnell and I think it sounds like "Swaski" like as scopes.

 

Lets say you where to list your top 5 scopes what would it be

1. I guess S & B will be number 1??

2.

3.

4.

5.

[Dunkield]

Thanks guys.  AndyCM good effort I will read up on this.  What are Bushnell and I think it sounds like "Swaski" like as scopes.

 

Lets say you where to list your top 5 scopes what would it be

 

1.  Schmidt and Bender

2.  Swarovski

3.  Ziess

4.  Leupold

5.  Nighforce

You have opened up a can of worms here BD!!

 

Even though I use S&B, ANY of the top 3 are the best money can buy (many would include NF in there too, but I have never looked through one so I can't comment)

 

I would list them in a line as there isn't much to chose between then, I would happily use any of them if I could afford them!

 

Leupolds are loved by many people as are Nightforce.

 

Can I also ask:

 

What are going to use the gun for?

What ranges are you going to be shooting at?

Are you going to be using it at night?

Edited December 2, 2005 by stuartp

[Big Dog]

Thanks stuartp.

 

Gun: .222

Use: small vermin, grey crows, some fox even dogs attacking sheep

I hope to use it on the range as long as I get into the club

 

Range: I find that the .22lr is limited for taking Grey crows unless you hide up and wait on them. So I see me using it from the 100 yrs up to its limits. I would have though that would be about 200 yrs, some tell me 150 yrs is brings the 222 up to it best??? I would have though a Hornet would have been in that range??

 

So in brief 100-200+ yrs - mostly small targets weither alive or paper

[AndyCM]

Hi Bigdog,

 

If you want to do an import from the US PM me and I'll share my experiences.

 

I have taken two scopes and one pair of bins (all from the Zeiss Conquest range - USA assembled) without a hitch, in the last year.

 

You have to allow for tax here (UK was 7% import & VAT on the whole lot) but still worked out worthwhile.

 

I would happily use any of the scopes in the top 5 list - no mention of meopta yet ?

 

Good luck

AndyCM

[Dunkield]

Good point Andy,

 

I have a Meopta Artemis 7x50 with the range finding reticle on my rimfire and I really rate that

 

Big Dog,

 

8x56 should be OK for a fixed power at those ranges.

If you go down the Leupold route you will find they are almost all variable mag so can wind it up if you need to.

 

Another thing to consider is crosshair thickness.

 

Both my Schmidts have 4a reticles which are great for animals but too thick for serious target work (if that bothers you)

 

My Meopta has fine cross hairs which can dissapear in dimpsy conditions against dark backgrounds, but better for target work.

 

Horses for courses. .

[deadeye ive]

Lets say you where to list your top 5 scopes what would it be

 

1.  Schmidt and Bender

2.  Swarovski

3.  Ziess

4.  Leupold

5.  Nighforce

You have opened up a can of worms here BD!!

 

 

 

 

Yes you have BD

 

If money is no object and your buying new let's say then any of those mentioned ...Don't forget Kahles their Austrian now owned by Swaroski.

 

What about if your budget was £200 though and you were buying new.My choice would be this.

 

Simmons AETEC 4-14x44 WA SF Illuminated Reticle Matte 512105 $219.99 +the various additional import cost.

 

I wonder what the top 5 would be then

 

SF

 

That ain,t a good deal .....It's a bloody excellent deal ......Scope mounts as well .I bet you still grin like a cheshire cat every time you fire it..................Can you tell me what reasons are behind someone changing a Smidt for them to come up S/H as me being a sceptic always think that they've either been dropped and the previous owner has lost confidence in it.

 

BD

 

300 yds is well in range + further still ,it all depends on your ammo and what range you have zero'd in at

 

At 300 yds......FPS 2034.........FT LBS 505.

" 1000 yds ...FPS 830..........Ft Lbs 84.......Both these calcs are on .223 Fed 55 grn BT and are an indication as to what power you have .

You'll be using factory ammo no doubt so it'll depend on how the combination of certain brands work in your gun but I would,nt go past 200 yds with the scope being zero'd for 150 yds.

 

 

Ive

[Dunkield]

[

Can you tell me what reasons are behind someone changing a Smidt for them to come up S/H as me being a sceptic always think that they've either been dropped and the previous owner has lost confidence in it.

You would have to seriously whack one to upset the optics, then it would obvious to anyone looking at it, let alone through it!

 

I sold a 6x42 S&B on ebay a couple of months ago as it came with the rifle I bought, and I already had an 8x56 S&B waiting for it.

 

The owner of the 8x56 sold it to me beacuse it was on a rimfire (yes seriously!) and he wanted mil dot - so he bought a Hawke Reflex instead.

 

I know we all have different preceptions of what 'expensive' is, but these scopes don't change hands for mad money, you just need to keep your eyes peeled for them.

 

For the record:

 

I sold the 6x42 for £210 - it was mint

I bought the 8x56 for £270 - also mint

 

If I didn't need the funds I would have stuck the 6x42 away to be used sometime in the future, but I did, so it had to go

[deadeye ive]

For the record:

 

I sold the 6x42 for £210 - it was mint

Stuart

 

It certainly opens up more avenues with a £200 budget and i have to say that I agree with yourself and SF when it comes to considering these scopes in the second hand market .

 

Ive

[Big Dog]

deadeye ive when you were talking about range a ftlb etc where you talking .223 or .222? I am getting a .222?

 

 

Also Retical. What is your thought?? I have a mildot on my rimmy which is ok but as you or stuartp said the cross hair is to thick for target, at least from my limited experience on the range, it would be hard to be consistant on the bull.

 

I do like the though of being able to have some type of count for hold over though.

 

You said about the finer cross hair getting lost in a darker target/bad light, would a illuminated retical solve this?? I noted that some of the scopes in the USA offer this for not to much more??

 

Ok guys I need to go and kick some butt at home, I'll tune in latter. Have a great weekend and watch you don't shoot yourself in the foot

 

My old neighbour did that. Set the barrel on his boot toe, the gun went off and so did his big toe

[deadeye ive]

deadeye ive when you were talking about range a ftlb etc where you talking .223 or .222?  I am getting a .222?

BD

 

The only difference is 1 thousenth of an INCH which in lay man terms is Nowt........

 

The ballistics however will be very similar

 

 

Try for your self using JBM Ballistics to get a rough idea .You'll need to select a ammo brand though to obtain the required data.If your struggling PM Sniper for assistance.

 

.222 will still be as powerful as your rimmy at a 1000 yds

 

Ive

[Dunkield]

I thought .222 as a calibre was on the way out?

[Big Dog]

Not in N. Ireland, it is the most popular of the smaller 22 range. I think it is because 223 is a military round and fields are smaller here??

[Frank]

Big Dog, in my opinion and experience, you cant beat a german made Smit & Bender Scope.

I have the 3 to 12 x 50 model mounted on my .223, as Tommy would say, 'FLAMING MARVELOUSE'!

Here it is below:

Edited December 4, 2005 by Frank

[whippet.22]

The only difference is 1 thousenth of an INCH which in lay man terms is Nowt........

Actually there's no difference between the bullets, only the cases and their powder capacity.

.22 hornet, .222, .223, .22-250 all use .224 caliber bullets of varying weights, the names are just to differenciate between them.

[Frank]

I thought a .22 Hornet bullet was slightly different then a .222 or .223?

[deadeye ive]

The only difference is 1 thousenth of an INCH which in lay man terms is Nowt........

Actually there's no difference between the bullets, only the cases and their powder capacity.

.22 hornet, .222, .223, .22-250 all use .224 caliber bullets of varying weights, the names are just to differenciate between them.

Whippet

 

Can you elabroate a bit more on the difference in case sizes between the .222 & .223 .reason being is that in NI they don't like the..223 in civilian hands.

 

If thats the case then can you load a .223 in a .222 gun or vica versa and still fire it

 

Cheers

 

Ive

[Big Dog]

deadeye ive interesting thoughts. Just this morning I was wondering if the only difference of the 2 was the magazine. I read somewhere that another calibiar and that was the difference??

 

So ya I would like to hear the answer to your question