Steel pigeon cartridges

[UKPoacher]

no good for lamping rabbits then

 

they dont degrade quick enough to use where there is livestock and can be fatal, and still look a mess all over the fields.

 

I get the picture. You work for the lead industry

[motty]

no good for lamping rabbits then

 

Does that mean that a .22 lr is no good for lamping rabbits,then? I've had plenty of ricochets when using those.

[243,1shot]

What's the opinions on the increasing number of non-toxic options for pigeon cartridges? I've seen some reasonably priced 28g - 30g ones in size 4 & 5 shot and was wondering if anyone has any experience of using them especially whether they aresuited to older guns with more open chokes.

gamebore steel are good they guarantee you can put them through anything up to 3/4 choke

[Guest topshot_2k]

I get the picture. You work for the lead industry

 

no, family farm - mainly livestock and i cant stand seeing plastic wads everywhere when i go on other shoots

[Guest topshot_2k]

Does that mean that a .22 lr is no good for lamping rabbits,then? I've had plenty of ricochets when using those.

 

buy a .17hmr then. You cant really prevent a .22lr ricochet too much but why add another danger by using steel for lamping if lead is available?

[UKPoacher]

buy a .17hmr then. You cant really prevent a .22lr ricochet too much but why add another danger by using steel for lamping if lead is available?

 

For one thing we are talking about pigeon cartridges, not lamping rabbits. The clue is in the title. "Steel PIGEON Cartridges

 

Secondly, you advocate using fibre cartridges and I agree that they would be ideal, but you fail to consider that instead of leaving an ounce of lead shot laying around we would be leaving biodegradable steel pellets. Which is the best option - lead and fibre wads or steel and photo degradable wads? The first option leaves lead shot for ever, the second nothing after a few years.

 

I really don't think that you have anything of value to add to this thread. It is obvious that you have no experience of using steel cartridges and don't ever intend to use them. So why don't you take your lack of experience and narrow minded views somewhere else?

[Guest topshot_2k]

For one thing we are talking about pigeon cartridges, not lamping rabbits. The clue is in the title. "Steel PIGEON Cartridges

 

Secondly, you advocate using fibre cartridges and I agree that they would be ideal, but you fail to consider that instead of leaving an ounce of lead shot laying around we would be leaving biodegradable steel pellets. Which is the best option - lead and fibre wads or steel and photo degradable wads? The first option leaves lead shot for ever, the second nothing after a few years.

 

I really don't think that you have anything of value to add to this thread. It is obvious that you have no experience of using steel cartridges and don't ever intend to use them. So why don't you take your lack of experience and narrow minded views somewhere else?

 

1. i was answering a point about steel that was brought up.

2. Lead pellets are not a danger to livestock and have been used for years with no evidence of any danger to humans etc

3. Plastic 'degradable' wads are a real danger to livestock, but hey they degrade in a matter of years

4. I have used steel on pigeons/ducks/geese so your comments about my lack of experience with it is childish.

5. I continue to use steel ONLY for wildfowl (inland as its not upto the foreshore compared to tungsten etc) the best load i have found is Remington Steel but it still doesnt compare to the equivalent lead load that i used to use. If im wildfowling near grassland i use bismuth with fibre wads.

6. This is a forum open to discussion, if you dont like other peoples views leave the forum rather than make childish statements. Esepcially when you have no idea of what i have and havnt used and when you are the one asking for peoples findings with steel

Edited July 12, 2010 by topshot_2k

[UKPoacher]

1. i was answering a point about steel that was brought up.

2. Lead pellets are not a danger to livestock and have been used for years with no evidence of any danger to humans etc

3. Plastic 'degradable' wads are a real danger to livestock, but hey they degrade in a matter of years

4. I have used steel on pigeons/ducks/geese so your comments about my lack of experience with it is childish.

5. I continue to use steel ONLY for wildfowl (inland as its not upto the foreshore compared to tungsten etc) the best load i have found is Remington Steel but it still doesnt compare to the equivalent lead load that i used to use. If im wildfowling near grassland i use bismuth with fibre wads.

6. This is a forum open to discussion, if you dont like other peoples views leave the forum rather than make childish statements. Esepcially when you have no idea of what i have and havnt used.

 

If you indeed have the experience you claim then why not share that with us in the first instance rather than carry on a stupidly short sighted and flawed argument against steel pellets?

 

Lead pellets are a danger to all living things, livestock and humans included. That is why lead is slowly and surely being banned in all sorts of areas including fishing and shooting. It is also why an increasing number of restaurants will not buy pigeons shot with lead pellets and whygame dealers are constantly being monitored to ensure that they do not buy waterfowl shot withlead pellets.

 

You stated that steel cartridges were overly expensive. They are actually cheaper than lead cartridges with plastic or photo degradable wads.

 

Plastic wads are only a danger to livestock where livestock are present, i.e. not in the cereal fields where I shoot pigeons. This thread is about pigeon shooting, not lamping rabbits over sheep pasture. There is no danger to livestock and no danger from ricochets

 

The forum is open to discussion and this thread is about pigeon cartridges, not lamping rabbits, not wildfowling, pigeons. Geddit?

[Guest topshot_2k]

Can you link me the source of evidence that lead shot is a danger to humans/animals who ingest it?

 

I said steel fibre wads where more expensive than lead and they are, nearly twice the price.

 

Why not just use lead fibre, 28g or 30g #6/#7 they cheap and perform better than steel and yes this is based on my experience.

 

What restaurants wont buy pigeon shot with lead? i have never once had a problem selling pigeon or rabbits shot with it.

 

Lead in wildfowl is monitored as thats what the law dictates.

What is your argument for using steel?? because its a few quid cheaper? Why is there no steel loads specifically aimed at pigeon shooting? because lead out performs it and there is no silly law forcing the issue.

Edited July 12, 2010 by topshot_2k

[UKPoacher]

Can you link me the source of evidence that lead shot is a danger to humans/animals who ingest it?

 

I said steel fibre wads where more expensive than lead and they are, nearly twice the price.

 

Why not just use lead fibre, 28g or 30g #6/#7 they cheap and perform better than steel and yes this is based on my experience.

 

What restaurants wont buy pigeon shot with lead? i have never once had a problem selling pigeon or rabbits shot with it.

 

Lead in wildfowl is monitored as thats what the law dictates.

What is your argument for using steel?? because its a few quid cheaper? Why is there no steel loads specifically aimed at pigeon shooting? because lead out performs it and there is no silly law forcing the issue.

 

 

Lead Poisoning 1

 

Lead Poisoning 2

 

Lead in Game

 

Lead in Game 2

 

My reason for thinking about using steel is that it is less toxic. If I just wanted to save money I could go for clay cartridges as advocated by some on here. Personally I don't think 7's are up to the job. That's why I don't use them. None of the farm shops on my shoot will stock pigeons or rabbits shot using lead, and both supply local restaurants. In France where a lot of our birds go some dealers pay a premium for pigeons shot using non lead shot.

 

There are steel loads suitable for pigeon shooters and if you took off your blinkers and read the thread properly you would see that.

 

None of your arguments make sense. Steel cartridges suitable for pigeons are cheaper than lead despite what you have posted. The question is about pigeon shooting, not rabbit shooting, not wildfowling, so none of your points are valid let alone relevent.

[Guest topshot_2k]

if you re-read my posts i said steel fibre are dearer than lead which they are by a long way and as i am unable to plastic over 70% of our land steel is not suitable

 

you evidence of lead shot causing harm to humans who eat shot game is wikipedia There is still no evidence to prove that eating shot game is dangerous. Its all 'could' and 'if you consume so much in a certain amount of time'. Its rubbish, people have eaten game for years.

 

Just use #6 then, Eley 30g #6.5 fibre can be had for a very good price.

[richg]

As promised earlier on this thread, myself and a friend went out yesterday afternoon on some peas to try out some Fibre Wad Steel Shot 5s.

Following the article about me in Shooting Times (June 2nd) i was given some Gamebore Silver Steel Upland Bio-Wad 28gm in 5 shot, These are currently loaded for the American market, The wad is a full cup made of cardboard, so is fully degradable and the shot is highly polished like chrome, no speed figures are given.

My first impressions at birds over the decoys was that they were little better than the 6s or even the 7.1/2s i was using previously, though outright kills were better with fewer wounded birds.

It was windy and birds were coming to the field up a valley and over a hedge about 800yds away so my mate took a pocket full of shells and went to intercept them, he was soon back for more shells, so i went back with him.

We got down about fifty yards apart with our backs to the hedge, shooting the approaching birds like driven game.

The birds came steady, and we were able to take birds at all heights and angles and i have to say i was impressed with the way these shells perform, killing birds well at range with 1/4 choke. They are certainly fast, and know doubt pattern well, with the highly polished non deforming shot. My mate who was a steel sceptic was grinning from ear to ear at the kills he was getting. So in conclusion i am satisfied that should the day ever come, and i hope it never comes, that lead is banned, there is a viable alternative. It may not tick everyones boxes, but i am happier knowing that shooting will continue at reasonable cost in the future. I stopped shooting duck a few years back after a bad experience with steel, but roll on september. Steel has come of age.

PS. We picked up 27 birds with twice that lost in standing crops.

Rich G.

[UKPoacher]

if you re-read my posts i said steel fibre are dearer than lead which they are by a long way and as i am unable to plastic over 70% of our land steel is not suitable

 

you evidence of lead shot causing harm to humans who eat shot game is wikipedia There is still no evidence to prove that eating shot game is dangerous. Its all 'could' and 'if you consume so much in a certain amount of time'. Its rubbish, people have eaten game for years.

 

Just use #6 then, Eley 30g #6.5 fibre can be had for a very good price.

 

Lead has been banned from wetlands, water pipes and from petrol due to environmental concerns. It is likely to be banned in shooting within the next five to ten years in some parts of the world and I'll wager one of them will be the EU. It is not safe to eat. You might choose not to believe that, and that's your business. My two nearest game outlets won't buy game or pigeons containing lead shot. The writing is on the wall.

 

Your comments about plastic wads are not relevent to many of us as many of us tend to shoot pigeons over crops, not livestock. Therefore your comments about the price of fibre wad cartridges are totally irrelevent. Equally irrelevent are your comments about lamping rabbits and ricochets in relation to pigeon cartridges. In fact you haven't made a relevent comment on this thead yet. Looking back at your previous posts on non-lead shot I see that you are a regular critic, and that your, ahem, 'experiences' appear to contradict those others who have used steel.

 

Thanks Richg - much appreciated. I'll get a hundred and give them a go.

[Guest topshot_2k]

Looking back at your previous posts on non-lead shot I see that you are a regular critic, and that your, ahem, 'experiences' appear to contradict those others who have used steel.

 

I only say what i have found and as a result wont use steel for anything other than where the law states i have to. Even then i try to use tungsten or bismuth.

 

If steel performed better i would be using it for everything but its not and so i, like many, will continue to use lead or other alternatives.

 

Remington steel is the best out there but its pricey.

[David BASC]

Hi Rich,

 

I read your feature in ST and very interested in your recent findings.

 

I may be wrong - but if these were loaded for the US market they will be running at 15-1600 fps I suspect, a bit faster than the UK loads.

 

None the less just shows how effective the sot can be as you have found out.

 

How was the price compared to the equivalent lead cartridge that you would normally use?

 

Best wishes

 

David

[yanibaby]

I may be wrong - but if these were loaded for the US market they will be running at 15-1600 fps I suspect, a bit faster than the UK loads.

 

 

David

 

Although they were made for the US market, they are also available in the UK and have been loaded to CIP regulations.

[UKPoacher]

I've just got a hundred Gamebore Steel 32g number 4's and will be trying them out at the weekend - shooting pigeons, out of the sky, in daylight, over crops and no livestock will be harmed in the making of my conclusions :yp:

 

I'm also intending to put one of the spent wads on a cane in my garden to see how quickly it degrades.

[richg]

Hi Rich,

 

I read your feature in ST and very interested in your recent findings.

 

I may be wrong - but if these were loaded for the US market they will be running at 15-1600 fps I suspect, a bit faster than the UK loads.

 

None the less just shows how effective the sot can be as you have found out.

 

How was the price compared to the equivalent lead cartridge that you would normally use?

 

Best wishes

 

David

Hi David,

 

I have not got a price for the Bio Wad shells yet, but the 7.1/2s i was using before cost £136 a thousand, which i think is a fair price compared with lead.

 

Richard

[David BASC]

Thanks Rich and others, :yp:

 

My mistake I thought you were using the faster US CIP standared carts, glad you got on with them. Will ST be doing a follow up do you know?

 

My regards to all

 

David

[richg]

Thanks Rich and others,

 

My mistake I thought you were using the faster US CIP standared carts, glad you got on with them. Will ST be doing a follow up do you know?

 

My regards to all

 

David

[/quote

 

I will try and get some of my shells chronographed so we have a better idea of their performance.

I think ST would like to do a follow up, I intend putting something together in the next week or so as soon as i have completed my field testing.

I went out yesterday afternoon on some peas in a gale, useing some White Gold pro steel 28g 6s and picked up 71 for 88 shots with no more than half a dozen wounded and maybe three or four that were hit that i felt should have come down.

The only area decoying where steel does not quite cut it, is on a fast going away bird, usually a second shot, having killed the first bird, but in saying that i still shot nine doubles and one treble yesterday. Certainly the 5s and 6s kill better than 7.1/2s, but we knew that anyway.

Stay Tuned.

Rich

[David BASC]

Thank you

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

Thank you

 

David

 

great info here.....

 

just on a very side note, directly related to the original topic.

 

i asked a ballistic "guy" from a shooting forum, a very good question.

 

what shotsize should i go for in steel, at 40yards, with a mv of 1600fps to maintain as much energy as comparable to lead #6

 

at that speed, at 40yards (which is deemed the maximum yardage one would ever shoot to) steel 5 would maintain alittle more energy at 40yards. (less than 5% more)

 

so, steel load at 1600fps of 5s are comparable to a classic lead 6 @40yards.

on a sider note 1800fps of steel 6, still does the business at 35 yards

 

i think the lead 6 has 2.5ftlb energy @40yards.

 

but what does a computer know what we dont?

[wymberley]

great info here.....

 

just on a very side note, directly related to the original topic.

 

i asked a ballistic "guy" from a shooting forum, a very good question.

 

what shotsize should i go for in steel, at 40yards, with a mv of 1600fps to maintain as much energy as comparable to lead #6

 

at that speed, at 40yards (which is deemed the maximum yardage one would ever shoot to) steel 5 would maintain alittle more energy at 40yards. (less than 5% more)

 

so, steel load at 1600fps of 5s are comparable to a classic lead 6 @40yards.

on a sider note 1800fps of steel 6, still does the business at 35 yards

 

i think the lead 6 has 2.5ftlb energy @40yards.

 

but what does a computer know what we dont?

 

"classic" lead at 40yards is 1.44ftlbs.

[Guest cookoff013]

"classic" lead at 40yards is 1.44ftlbs.

 

my mistake...

my bad !

 

but you get the point.

cook.

[David BASC]

Not just energy but how far does in penetrate - so the shot can cause critical damage to vital tissues.

 

BASC’s ballistics research measures penetration of widely-available cartridges into permagel, the standard body simulant. In our tests steel no. 4 (Gamebore Wetland Steel) penetrated 14% further than lead no. 6 (Hull Sterling Game) at 40yd. Hull Steel Game no.3 penetrated less than Lyalvale Express Super Game lead no. 5 up to 30yd but by 50yd penetration was, statistically, no different.

 

We also look at the pattern density. We use the standard of at least 100 pellets in the 30in circle, which is the current minimum for clean kills of pheasant, based on US research. BASC’s steel pattern counts for UK no. 4 steel (32g Hull Steel Game) start at an average 148 through cylinder choke at 30yd. At 40yd the average is 171 through half choke, but only 90 through cylinder. Larger no.3 (3.3mm) shot patterns start at an average of 127 at 30yd through cylinder choke and, at 40yd, 156 through half choke, again falling below the 100 threshold (88) through cylinder.

 

So, by measuring what actually happens with modern cartridges, we can start to give guidance on what happens in reality rather than on the PC.

 

Regrds

 

David