How do i get him to stop on the stop whistle?

[blacky]

I have a year old lab i got him when he was 7 months been training him for about 4 months he will stop on the whistle at heel or out doing the toilet etc but when i send him for a dummy and he is hunting i blow the stop whistle to help him but he just blanks me it's if he is excited and wants to do by himself any ideas how to get him to listen?

 

Thanks

[MC]

If he blanks you when he is at any sort of distance then you need to get out there, drag him back to where he was when you first blew the whistle and blow the stop hard and loud to reinforce it.

 

If you just keep blowing the whistle then he will learn to ignore it, have you tried him on a long line so you can stop him if he doesn't?

 

If he is hunting in the right area for the dummy then I wouldn't stop him anyway, however if he needs handling then you need him to stop.

[blacky]

Thanks for reply

 

If he blanks you when he is at any sort of distance then you need to get out there, drag him back to where he was when you first blew the whistle and blow the stop hard and loud to reinforce it.

 

I am going out to do this to him.

 

If you just keep blowing the whistle then he will learn to ignore it, have you tried him on a long line so you can stop him if he doesn't?

 

Just know he is on a long line when we are out walking etc and training and great at sitting on the whistle.

 

If he is hunting in the right area for the dummy then I wouldn't stop him anyway, however if he needs handling then you need him to stop.

 

I don't stop him if he is in the right area i only stop him when he is too far away from the dummy and this is where he blanks me

[fieldwanderer]

got exactly the same problem with my springer and am struggling to sort it, in fact the only time she ever misbehaves is when she's excited. I'll keep an eye on this post as any help would be much appreciated.

[UKPoacher]

Get a length of 1" link chain - about 6" should do. Or an old bunch of keys. When the dog is preoccupied with something give the stop whistle signal and if you don't get instantaneous response immediately launch the chain in the general direction of the dog. Doesn't have to hit it, just nearby will do. As soon as you get a reaction give another stop whistle and you should get success.

 

What you are doing is breaking the dog's concentration from what he is preoccupied with and focussing it on you.

 

Don't throw what you can't afford to lose. Start with the dog relatively close and gradually increase the distance. Luckily dog's don't know how accurate you are or how far you can throw.

[WGD]

Does he take direction? He'll stop if he knows you're going to help him.

 

To reinforce the stop, sit the dog up in front of you. Move away a few paces and throw the dummy (seen) behind you - make it easy. Send him so he runs past you to get the dummy, let him do this a few times. Then stop him just before he gets to you and be ready to stop him if he doesn't stop on the whistle. Only reward him by giving him the retrieve if he stops sharp.

 

Is he steady to a thrown dummy?

[kent]

Get a length of 1" link chain - about 6" should do. Or an old bunch of keys. When the dog is preoccupied with something give the stop whistle signal and if you don't get instantaneous response immediately launch the chain in the general direction of the dog. Doesn't have to hit it, just nearby will do. As soon as you get a reaction give another stop whistle and you should get success.

 

What you are doing is breaking the dog's concentration from what he is preoccupied with and focussing it on you.

 

Don't throw what you can't afford to lose. Start with the dog relatively close and gradually increase the distance. Luckily dog's don't know how accurate you are or how far you can throw.

Rather a dangerous thing to do me thinks. Would you stand in a field and be happy for someone to chuck 6" of Link chain in your direction? i know i shouldn't be very happy about it. Get it wrong and you could blind the dog or worse.

[blacky]

Does he take direction? He'll stop if he knows you're going to help him.

 

To reinforce the stop, sit the dog up in front of you. Move away a few paces and throw the dummy (seen) behind you - make it easy. Send him so he runs past you to get the dummy, let him do this a few times. Then stop him just before he gets to you and be ready to stop him if he doesn't stop on the whistle. Only reward him by giving him the retrieve if he stops sharp.

 

Is he steady to a thrown dummy?

When he does stop he does look for help

 

Yes he is steady to a thrown dummy even when i have him siting and i am throwing dummies around him he wont move.

[WGD]

Have you done directional exercises with seen dummies so you know he understands the help you are trying to give him?

 

He may be looking at you but if you're waving your arms around like an air traffic controller and he's wondering what you mean there's not a great incentive for him to lift his head when you ask him to. It's quite advanced work for a young dog you've only had 4 months.

Edited August 12, 2010 by WGD

[blacky]

Have you done directional exercises with seen dummies so you know he understands the help you are trying to give him?

 

He may be looking at you but if you're waving your arms around like an air traffic controller and he's wondering what you mean there's not a great incentive for him to lift his head when you ask him to. It's quite advanced work for a young dog you've only had 4 months.

 

We have worked on directional excercises with him sitting in front of a fence me putting dummies left and right then standing in front of him sending him left or right . Maybe we are taking this to quick for him if we just take a step back and just work on the stop whistle.

[WGD]

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to build a picture of where you're at.

 

I would agree with working on the stop as an exercise in it's own right. He has to want to look at you, he needs reason to, i.e. a reward. Send him for a tricky retrieve, maybe seen but no longer visible say, and stop him as he goes and when he stops throw another easier retrieve and let him have that.

 

Best of luck

[UKPoacher]

Rather a dangerous thing to do me thinks. Would you stand in a field and be happy for someone to chuck 6" of Link chain in your direction? i know i shouldn't be very happy about it. Get it wrong and you could blind the dog or worse.

 

There's always one :o

 

That's why I said: "Doesn't have to hit it, just nearby will do." It's a distraction technique, not a punishment. THe dog sees and hears the chain. You've more chance of blinding the dog sending it into a gorse thicket or bramble bush.

[Gillaroo]

What are you hoping to use the dog for - trials, small shoot, rough shoot etc?

 

One of the best picking up dogs I have ever owned was verging on out of control and would never (when on a runner) stop to the whistle. However, some of the most experienced guns in the country would be more than happy to see him behind them on a drive as he used his own brain and instinct to get those birds back to me in double quick time.

 

You mention you want to stop and help him to the dummy which is why I ask.

 

Good luck

 

Mike

 

PS If you're picking up you may be guiding him back to where YOU think the bird is when in actual fact it has run 50 yards and he is onto it.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Gillaroo

[WGD]

There's always one

 

That's why I said: "Doesn't have to hit it, just nearby will do." It's a distraction technique, not a punishment. THe dog sees and hears the chain. You've more chance of blinding the dog sending it into a gorse thicket or bramble bush.

 

Exactly, it's an old and effective technique used properly.

[blacky]

What are you hoping to use the dog for - trials, small shoot, rough shoot etc?

 

One of the best picking up dogs I have ever owned was verging on out of control and would never (when on a runner) stop to the whistle. However, some of the most experienced guns in the country would be more than happy to see him behind them on a drive as he used his own brain and instinct to get those birds back to me in double quick time.

 

You mention you want to stop and help him to the dummy which is why I ask.

 

Good luck

 

Mike

 

PS If you're picking up you may be guiding him back to where YOU think the bird is when in actual fact it has run 50 yards and he is onto it.

 

Hi Mike would like to use him on Trials and rough shoots etc he has not had any live game or cold game yet until i am harry with his control etc.

Like you said he does use his brain but sometimes he's of the mark so i try and stop him to get him back in the area to hunt.

[kent]

Exactly, it's an old and effective technique used properly.

 

Sorry but i shouldn't use it, how far out are we talking when we do this and how close to get an effect? Personally i see no point in blowing the stop unless your dog is a fair way out or takes the wrong direction entirely. The exeption to this is stopping a run out to a retrieve to send him on another, but at short range the dog should be easy to correct without throwing chains and at long range i cannot see how you can be close enough without being too close

 

Reading this thread i am getting the impresion the dog is not being sent out on total blinds and feels it doesn't need help or is very keen, if the dog thinks it knows better it is unlikely to look to the handler for help

 

My own is hard to stop on the wistle for directions if he thinks he knows were to look as he becomes totally focused and can blank me but on total blinds sits and looks back to me for guidence, its hard to just let the dog get on with it at times but if we leave them to it sometimes its better to hold off with all the comands, if he fails and i get a look from him it is on the wistle and redirect (team work). My GWP being an air scenting dog will run wide of my direction using the wind, if i misread the wind and blow stop and redirect him he gets confused. It took me a while to learn he was doing this

[pegleg31]

Sorry but i shouldn't use it, how far out are we talking when we do this and how close to get an effect? Personally i see no point in blowing the stop unless your dog is a fair way out or takes the wrong direction entirely. The exeption to this is stopping a run out to a retrieve to send him on another, but at short range the dog should be easy to correct without throwing chains and at long range i cannot see how you can be close enough without being too close

 

Reading this thread i am getting the impresion the dog is not being sent out on total blinds and feels it doesn't need help or is very keen, if the dog thinks it knows better it is unlikely to look to the handler for help

 

My own is hard to stop on the wistle for directions if he thinks he knows were to look as he becomes totally focused and can blank me but on total blinds sits and looks back to me for guidence, its hard to just let the dog get on with it at times but if we leave them to it sometimes its better to hold off with all the comands, if he fails and i get a look from him it is on the wistle and redirect (team work). My GWP being an air scenting dog will run wide of my direction using the wind, if i misread the wind and blow stop and redirect him he gets confused. It took me a while to learn he was doing this

 

 

your dog should be rock steady at close range before moving onto longer range's

 

for the OP,try walking your dog to heel drop a dummy that your dog see's,turn around and walk back.sit your dog at some point you feel comfortable they'll go back for it.and carry on forward.now call your dog into you.pick a position you want to stop your dog and blow the whistle for the dog to sit.now the the dog know's the dummy is in the opposite direction so should sit.once your happy with the dog sitting move your distance further away,but keep the same postion for the dog to sit.as soon as this click's you'll be away.but if your not there at close range i'd get that right first

[cracker]

Sorry but i shouldn't use it, how far out are we talking when we do this and how close to get an effect? Personally i see no point in blowing the stop unless your dog is a fair way out or takes the wrong direction entirely. The exeption to this is stopping a run out to a retrieve to send him on another, but at short range the dog should be easy to correct without throwing chains and at long range i cannot see how you can be close enough without being too close

 

Reading this thread i am getting the impresion the dog is not being sent out on total blinds and feels it doesn't need help or is very keen, if the dog thinks it knows better it is unlikely to look to the handler for help

 

My own is hard to stop on the wistle for directions if he thinks he knows were to look as he becomes totally focused and can blank me but on total blinds sits and looks back to me for guidence, its hard to just let the dog get on with it at times but if we leave them to it sometimes its better to hold off with all the comands, if he fails and i get a look from him it is on the wistle and redirect (team work). My GWP being an air scenting dog will run wide of my direction using the wind, if i misread the wind and blow stop and redirect him he gets confused. It took me a while to learn he was doing this

 

Kent's response is perceptive and spot-on throughout.

 

As for handling a dog on a mark - meaning getting it to stop on a whistle and face you - NOT a good idea. The dog is born with a nose that is ridiculously attuned, and should be allowed to use it. Which is why you train dogs to mark - sight over scent - from a young age and throw white dummies in flat featureless fields. So they can see the dummy every step of the way - using their eyes. Later you throw into cover and the dog's marking - sight - will propel it into that cover for the dummy (or bird). Once in the cover it goes into hunting mode - nose - scent superseding sight as it should be.

 

No chains, no whistles, no screaming. The dog will do its job - if it's been trained to mark, and to hunt. Training to handle is whole other kettle of fish but starts as pegleg noted with sitting at close range. They'll do that just fine at 4 months if you got a judicious feel for it and know how to work your whistle.

 

MG

[UKPoacher]

All control training should be done at close enough range so as to be able to intervene if necessary. As already been said; the dog may be ignoring the handler because it thinks it knows best. By breaking its preoccupation or concenration and re-focusing it back on the handler then it is more likely to take directions from him. This is a common problem. When the dog ignores a command that it should respond to then you need something other than repeated commands that are being ignored and therefore undermining the training already carried out.

 

Throwing a chain or keys breaks the dog's preoccupation. The effect is immediate and if you then get in with a quick stop command it usually works. If it doesn't then the basic training needs reinforcing. Obviously you start to do this within range of your throw. The dog doesn't know your accuracy or distance you can throw and so you can progress once the close range control is nailed on. What this technique does is to instill into the dog that a stop whistle means stop no matter what he is doing or how far he is away.

 

This is not something I have dreamed up. It has been tried and tested in all sorts of dog training exercises. There are similar versions using metal discs like cymbals and even air powered fog horns. I have used it with chain / keys for around thirty years to good effect. All my dogs respond immediately to the stop command whether it is a gun dog, a pet or a five and a half stone police dog chasing a man.

 

Please do not decry a proven method that you have not tried just because you do not understand it. Others may see and obtain benefit in it.

[cracker]

Please do not decry a proven method that you have not tried just because you do not understand it. Others may see and obtain benefit in it.

 

Not decrying, mate, only trying not to have too big a larf. I suppose those criminals fling themselves at the police dog, too to break its concentration...

 

"Proven" means oh the last 100 years or so, aye? I think over that time spraying with grapeshot, scruffing, and hanging a dog from a noose were all proven, too. And the dogs undoubtedly obtained benefit from it. Fact is, there's no right or wrong way to train a dog, even a gundog, just better, more efficient methods. And tossing an object at a dog that's gone after an object that's been tossed already for it to retrieve is just - hey, where's that icon for cloud cuckooland, has wee WGD taken sole possession of it?

 

Of course "the dog may think it knows best," that's what training is countermanding. You let the dog understand you know best by rewarding it when it's acted as you've willed. You willn't have thrown a frisbee, sack of shillings or googly in its direction - you'll have started the stop to whistle in close, say as the dog's on the way to its food bowl. Why so? Because you can get in the correction if the dog's remiss and you can give it the reward (eat, drink and be merrie) when it does comply.

 

MG

[kent]

Thanks MG, I know you get the points i was making but new forum member = total novice to many

[UKPoacher]

Not decrying, mate, only trying not to have too big a larf. I suppose those criminals fling themselves at the police dog, too to break its concentration...

 

"Proven" means oh the last 100 years or so, aye? I think over that time spraying with grapeshot, scruffing, and hanging a dog from a noose were all proven, too. And the dogs undoubtedly obtained benefit from it. Fact is, there's no right or wrong way to train a dog, even a gundog, just better, more efficient methods. And tossing an object at a dog that's gone after an object that's been tossed already for it to retrieve is just - hey, where's that icon for cloud cuckooland, has wee WGD taken sole possession of it?

 

Of course "the dog may think it knows best," that's what training is countermanding. You let the dog understand you know best by rewarding it when it's acted as you've willed. You willn't have thrown a frisbee, sack of shillings or googly in its direction - you'll have started the stop to whistle in close, say as the dog's on the way to its food bowl. Why so? Because you can get in the correction if the dog's remiss and you can give it the reward (eat, drink and be merrie) when it does comply.

 

MG

 

Yes. You are right. Some proven methods haven't stood the test of time. Most of them were based on cruelty or bullying. For example, I see no point in dragging a dog back to where it has disobeyed. To me that is oppressive and breaks the first principle on my belief in dog training - the dog does not understand or rationalise in the same way that we do. But, that method is reputed to have worked for some and so I won't decry it even if I don't and won't use it myself.

 

The distraction technique works. The fact that you mention throwing something after the dog has been sent for a thrown article demonstrates to me that you do not fully understand the method. We are not throwing another dummy or indeed anything the dog wants to retrieve. It will not form a substitute retrieve article and cause the dog to sway from its original task. In the same way, a training 'criminal' can throw or discard an article while the police dog is chasing him and the dog ignores it. However, if an article like a chain is thrown by a third party across the path as the dog passes in chase then it has been shown to distract the dog sufficiently for the handler to recall or stop the dog after it has ignored a previous command. Same with blast from an air-horn.

 

It works for dogs that are deliberately ignoring the handler's commands, not for dogs that have not been trained the exercise in the first place.

[jimmyb79]

I used a slightly different method to instill the stop whistle in my cocker from an early age which I haven't seen posted yet. Apologies if I've missed it...

 

A trainer once told me that part of training the stop whistle is to give the dog a scene in its mind as to what happens when the whistle blows. This means sitting the dog up and walking away, stopping every now and again to blow the whistle with your arm and hand straight up above you. Keep walking away and repeating and then move around the dog in a 360 degree circle, stopping every now and again to blow the stop whistle. All the time the dog should be sat, and in theory this imprints the picture of it sitting when the whistle blows.

Worked a treat on my cocker, and its just starting to have some results with my lab after he developed selective hearing over the stop whistle.

 

Might help...

 

JB

[WGD]

where's that icon for cloud cuckooland, has wee WGD taken sole possession of it?

 

Nah, can't find the damn thing - have you hidden it again? After all, you of all people will know where best to find it