wymberley Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hi, Guys, Don't want to rain on anyone's parade - everybody has a valid point to make. With that in mind, how accurate do people think a sub' LR round can be? For good reason I've just done something unusual and got a bit of a surprise (to me). Have never chrono'd the 223 40gr as it did what the ballistic tables said and therefore had to be pretty close to what the loading tables suggested. However, did so - or more precisely tried to - earlier in the week but the chrono failed to work. Read instructions (too late) and thought it could be the sun too low as said. Just been out to try it - fine. Saving pennies, I used the Eley subs. Come on, who chrono's subs? 1065 ft/sec is the null and as I only took a 5 round mag this cannot be considered scientific but 'twas food for thought for me. Fastest, 1057; slowest 1019; average 1047. Bearing in mind that I was only checking to see if the chrono was OK, I didn't note the other 2 rounds - the figures I gave are what the chrono stores - but it seems a bit iffy to me in terms of pinpoint accuracy. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 how accurate do people think a sub' LR round can be? Fastest, 1057; slowest 1019; average 1047. Bearing in mind that I was only checking to see if the chrono was OK, I didn't note the other 2 rounds - the figures I gave are what the chrono stores - but it seems a bit iffy to me in terms of pinpoint accuracy. Any thoughts? Goodness, and I thought I was the only sad old *** who seemed to enjoy the more anal aspects of shooting (sorry Wymberley - that was not intended as an insult but a kind of back handed compliment ) I cannot find my original figures but using a CZ with 16" barrel shooting 40grain SK (Lapua) subs I got an average of 1057fps and from memory the variation was about similar to what you have found. The manufacturer quotes 1033fps. My Chrony was about 1ft from the end of the muzzle. Although the numbers seem to vary quite a bit, like yours, in practical terms I get groups around half inch at 50 yards and the bullet placement does not repeatedly follow what you would expect from the chronometer reading. 1060fps might go low 1040fps might go high, illogical but..... I reckon bullet placement is more to do with aerodynamics (hollow point lead - shape) than speed. Fliers (out by half inch at 50 yards) seem to crop up about 1 in 30 shots? (1 in 30 is a guess) and I have tried weighing bullets but that did not weed out any odd ones. I also weighed them into "heavier" and "lighter" on the assumption (wrong assumption) that it might affect their trajectory and it did not make any noticeable difference. I was about to buy a gadget to check the rim thickness (read about it somewhere) but then grew up and became sensible again. All I can say is that Ely won't chamber in my CZ and neither will CCI, they are just too tight. Having tried everything I could get my hands on I settled for SK (Lapua) which are at the expensive end but give (for me) the tightest and most consistent groups with the fewest fliers. .22lr is remarkably accurate and consistent, shooting at targets even 150 yards away can give quite close groups but you do need to compensate for a 2ft bullet drop and you can actually watch the bullet through the scope as it slowly drops its way down to the target, quite spooky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmax55 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hello vmax, This is getting silly and really will be my last post on this subject. At no point have I stated absolutely that you have no respect for the quarry, I do not know you. Some of the wording which you have used in your posts, such as "giving the quarry a sporting chance not shooting fish in a barrel" in the context that you find it amusing that some of us use rangefinders in order to improve our accuracy in order to be certain of a kill, implies a lack of respect for the quarry. It may sound like a play on words but it is not. I and others do not want to offer them (rabbits) a sporting chance, at least not at the point when we pull the trigger, I am looking for the certainty of a kill with every shot. I have just got back from a quick visit to the golf club. 3 shots, 3 dead rabbits. I did not give them a sporting chance other than my wits against theirs while stalking (two others were smarter than me and bug**rd off). You clearly misunderstood my comment about pushing the boundaries. I shoot within my ability and the conditions of the day, but strive to improve. In the early days I would shoot at 50 yards, I was a good shot at 50 yards. With experience and practice on targets I could push my boundary out to 60 yards. Now at 60 yards I was as skilled and accurate as I used to be at 50 yards. Then 70, 80, 90 yards. Lots of practice on targets honing skill, when good enough at that range, shoot rabbits, but not before. If it is windy, my maximum range comes down, if conditions are perfect, the range goes up. This evening I was using the hmr in a 20mph headwind but all shots were between 65 and 85 yards and easy chest shots as it was a culling operation, no meat needed. Respect for the quarry means shoot and kill instantly, one shot - no negotiation. I am sure you are a good shot and we all need to be careful how we express our views as we can only be judged by what we write. well said and i totally agree with you. this has got a bit miss-interpretated along the way. never meant to cause any offence to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 Hang on, just a minute, what 22 LR? Have you been sneaking off to the RFD again? Agh Did'nt I tell you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 Hi, Guys, Don't want to rain on anyone's parade - everybody has a valid point to make. With that in mind, how accurate do people think a sub' LR round can be? For good reason I've just done something unusual and got a bit of a surprise (to me). Have never chrono'd the 223 40gr as it did what the ballistic tables said and therefore had to be pretty close to what the loading tables suggested. However, did so - or more precisely tried to - earlier in the week but the chrono failed to work. Read instructions (too late) and thought it could be the sun too low as said. Just been out to try it - fine. Saving pennies, I used the Eley subs. Come on, who chrono's subs? 1065 ft/sec is the null and as I only took a 5 round mag this cannot be considered scientific but 'twas food for thought for me. Fastest, 1057; slowest 1019; average 1047. Bearing in mind that I was only checking to see if the chrono was OK, I didn't note the other 2 rounds - the figures I gave are what the chrono stores - but it seems a bit iffy to me in terms of pinpoint accuracy. Any thoughts? yep, .22 lr just aint made for shooting at extended ranges. Poppers and crackers (rounds that go faster or slower by a marked amount) occur even with the best ammo (lapua) from my own experiance. Ok it doesn't matter if your just having a bit of fun punching some paper etc. but can when you extend your hunting ranges. At ranges of up to 60 yds or so it is still very much going to get the job done. At 100 or so things look a bit different- especially when you factor in error in wind call / range / movement Remember being subsonic the potential for a sudden sound to reach your quarry imediatly before impact is there and a 150 yds rabbit has practically a full half second from bullet leaving the muzzle to impact and thats a long time!( this is assuming the 1000 fps stays constant - which it doesn't it slows!) Now consider how long it takes a bunny to hop forwards unexpectedly. Even if your prey is not alarmed by anything at all they tend to just do this anyway. Whenever accuraccy required posts come up on a forum you always seem to get some person who has all the therory but little of the practice who talks of drop and trajectory but has scant regard for the skills of wind reading (which any experianced long range shooter nows is perhaps ten times or more significant) The claim normally goes " when conditions are right" but seem to think that means light winds rather than predictable stength ones from a good angle. Raising or lowering is also an issue with winds traveling up/down incines and from left or right due to the direction of twist and it takes more than an afternoons shooting and a play on a free balistic program to learn such things The talk mostly turns into groups which is pretty darn meaningless as the skill is in placing but one shot and calling it correctly without a sighter shot, without forgeting those pre mentioned " poppers and crackers" or the odd ones they pulled which often get counted out and ignoored, yet it is those very fliers that should consern us My gun and my ammo choice is good, i once produced 8 consecutive shots into one raggy hole @ 100yds with my Cz varmint and lapua. The reason it was eight i thought something was wrong and shot the final two into the sand, not being able to sight my shots onto the paper i thought i was on with the first but something weird had happened to my next 7. Following week i had calls for details of my ammo batch etc. and two members actually ordered the same gun. Notice i didn't say " I can do this" as repeating it will be very difficult I can place most of my shots on a thumbnail group @ 100 yds and can mostly call the wind to get that group within 1- 1.5 moa of target at that distance but not any better as we are now talking of predicting a full value 2-3mph gust to achieve that but even if this 2" call of shot is adequate for a good chest shot - No way can i tell if the chambered round is one of the afor mentioned poppers or crackers and no way can i predict that unepected hop forwards. No way am i suggesting i can garantee no bad shots on quarry, it happens for so many different reasons, not least of which is being slightly short of breath and a less than ideal stance in the field, but might i suggest that 60-65 yds is a far more realistic range for an experianced shot with .22 lr and at such ranges in practice he /she should place all his shots very presisely - but get real and exept that in the field those bug hole groups will double in size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 Judging range is a nightmare with subs past 70yds. Even with a rangefinder you often can't get a good reading if the rabbit is in long wheat and being 10yds out means a missed killzone even if you get the windage right, even that's assuming that you manage to hold the rifle vertical. HMR is the rabbit tool for longer shots, it's so much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Duncan Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 No way am i suggesting i can garantee no bad shots on quarry, it happens for so many different reasons, not least of which is being slightly short of breath and a less than ideal stance in the field, but might i suggest that 60-65 yds is a far more realistic range for an experianced shot with .22 lr and at such ranges in practice he /she should place all his shots very presisely - but get real and exept that in the field those bug hole groups will double in size True enough. I can get groups with my HW100 air rifle at 100 yards which some would day are tight enought ot hunt with. I don't though, obviously. 45 yards is my limit in .177. Likewise, I can group very well even at 120 yards with my CZ, but hunt to about 75 yards currently. Paper punching is one thing, live quarry is entirely another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Agh Did'nt I tell you Seems to be a space between those two (nice!), wonder what's going there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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