Frenchieboy Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I went up to see my Deer Stalking Mentor today who is also my local RFD. While I was there as he knew I was interested in a nice "Double 12" he said he had one that I could have! I have been out and had a couple of shots with it but so far I have only had to use the right hand barrel as it was only a couple of rabbits and the gun and I seemed to "gel together" straight away. The gun needs a little tidying up i.e. the barrels could do with reblueing and the woodwork could do with stripping and renovating but on the whole the gun is in very good mechanical condition with the action as tight as a ducks back side! The barrels are only 25.5 inches long and choked at 3/4 and Full with a Box Lock Action, twin triggers, non-ejector and manual safety catch and when fired using 2&3/4inch no 6 Winchester cartridges there is less "kick" than on any other 12 bore I have fired. It really is a dream to shoot with! I believe that the gun is well over 50 years old but apart from the markings on the gun I know very nothing about it, which is why I am asking for any of you shotgun experts to help me out here! There is no makers mark or name to be found on the action but on the top of both barrels above each chamber are the words ENGLISH STEEL VICKERS - WORKS - SHEFFIELD Below that is some writing I can't quite make out and under that are the words MADE IN ITALY and under that again are the words ANNE CROMATE The action (As can be seen in the photos is beautifully engraved and carries the following markings: 17105 (The serial number) A star with the letters LS inside it. What looks like a padlock with the letters JK inside it. What looks like a flower head with the letters PSF underneath it. And what looks like another flower head with the letters INITO underneath it. This is about the first SxS that I have really felt comfortable with and as I am a bit of a "traditioniolist" I feel very at home with side by sides anyhow. I would appreciate any information that any of you could offer on this gun. Below are a few photos that I have just taken but they might be a little clearer if I retake them using natural light tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Going from left to right on the bottom row, The first is a proof showing the provisional proof in the Gardone proof house, I think it's meant to be a lion or something. The Star (Or flower, as you said) with PSF shows the definitive proof for guns with smokeless powder. The third (Star with FINTO or 'Finished' underneath) shows the finish proof, and showing the firearm is ready for sale Your gun in no older than 1951. The star of David is a bit of a mystery, The only thing I know of that's close is Israeli proof mark, maybe it spent some time there? Edit: I Don't think it says 'LS' I think the characters are from the Hebrew alphabet. Edited April 17, 2011 by Bleeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 New thought: Do the barrel and action serial numbers match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 New thought: Do the barrel and action serial numbers match? Yes Mate, I double checked them and they all match - Barrels - Action and also the Fore End, all serial numbers are the same - 17105 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Yes Mate, I double checked them and they all match - Barrels - Action and also the Fore End, all serial numbers are the same - 17105 That's queer! Why would an Italian maker put English barrels on one of their products? Think it's been "got at" post manufacture - new barrels - but not done in UK. If you like it, grab it as it can't be too pricey, do something to the chokes perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 anson deely action with a cross bolt lock. most countrys have a version of this action. i believe there is a german variation. i know this because i`ve got one. that looks severely italian. check it out... http://www.merkel-die-jagd.de/de/produkte/gewehre/doppelflinten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 I think you should pass it on too your good friend as you have way tomay guns?!?!!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 English blank barrels sent to Italy as 'Blank barrels' fixed to guns, then the Italian maker produced and proofed the gun, shipped it to Israel where it was re-proofed for market, spent some time there and somehow brought back to England? Well, that's my theory. Anyway, that's all I could find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 I can see what you are saying Cookoff 013 but the puzzling but is the barrels that clearly say "ENGLISH STEEL - VICKERS - WORKS - SHEFFIELD" and underneath that "MADE IN ITALY" and underneath that the name "ANNE CROMATE" (All stamped in upper case with hyphons) I have yet again rechecked the serial numbers and all three match each other so I am certain that it isn't a bit of a "mongrel"! It's quite a puzzler and I am grateful for all replies and info. I quite like the gun and I seem to get on fairly well with it so that is the important thing! As for your reply Rascal you old scallywag, you are hoping that I will agree and give the gun to you, aren't you! SORRY, NO CHANCE MATE! p.s. The wife has just said "Why spend a nice day like this sitting at your computer, why don't you go out with your new toy and have some fun"! Who am I to argue with my wife so you can guess what I am going to be doing for the next few hours. Look out crows and pigeons, here I come!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 this friendship is over lolol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Highly unlikely that a gun of this type is a "mongrel". The sbs boxlock does not lend itself to cobbling something together in the same way that you might with an auto or, say,a Beretta where numerous models of O/U have interchangeable parts. After the end of WW2 the Italian gun trade, along with the rest of the economy of a "defeated" and occupied country, were in a pretty dire state whilst we still had the remnants of a functional gun manufacturing trade. It was not unusual for English made barrels to be shipped in the rough as chopper lump castings all around the world, to be finished by the purchaser, but bearing the "English steel etc" marks you describe which would have been a sign of good quality. Looking at the gun itself it appears to be a workmanlike copy of a Churchill XXV with an added crossbolt. The fancy backed action and gas vents on the action face suggest that this was a bit more than a workaday gun since one would not bother with these features in a cheap gun. The ANNE CROMATE refers to something like annealed chrome steel, of which the barrels are made, and they are,as far as I can see of the chopper lump type as opposed to monoblock. It also may have a renewable hinge pin. If it looks proportionate, is in proof and handles nicely you`d be daft not to buy it. Edited April 18, 2011 by mudpatten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 this friendship is over lolol Oh dear rascal my old friend, I didn't mean to upset you. As a good will gesture I would be more than happy to send you a few spent cartridges fired by this beautiful gun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 thanks MATE lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Just a quick amendment to the original details I gave about the gun. I have been to the gun shop today and used a set of choke guages on it. The gun is not Full and 3/4 choke as I was told it is in fact 1/2 and 1/2 choke, which suits me better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 awwww them chokes sound rubbish! send it down here and il get rid... :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Rascal old mate, I would give it to you but it is that old (Made well before you were) that I doubt if you could handle it well enough to do it justice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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