21g vs. 28g cartridges. Anyone patterned them?

[Sunray]

After using 28g Compex 7 1/2 and 28g Sporter 8's for a number of years, I have recently been introduced to the delights of Compex 21g for Skeet. The performance appears to be identical but the recoil is reduced, of course. As this is a reduction of 25% in the amount of lead leaving the barrel I find this intriguing. Has anyone done a side by side pattern test on these cartridges and if so, what were the results?

 

 

Chris

[Cosmicblue]

After using 28g Compex 7 1/2 and 28g Sporter 8's for a number of years, I have recently been introduced to the delights of Compex 21g for Skeet. The performance appears to be identical but the recoil is reduced, of course. As this is a reduction of 25% in the amount of lead leaving the barrel I find this intriguing. Has anyone done a side by side pattern test on these cartridges and if so, what were the results?

 

 

Chris

 

No, not here - though have spent some time with Carl Bloxham looking at the effect of different chokes when shooting at a pattern plate (doesn't make as much difference as you would think).

 

There is a ballistic suggestion that the larger loads i.e. 28 vs 21 have an adverse affect on the pattern because the increased numbers of pellets in the larger load are more likely collide with each other and then depart the pattern resulting in less lead heading towards the target. In my own, albeit limited experience/skill, increasing the the load doesn't result in any more broken targets - if you are in the right spot then the target breaks (obvious I know) irrespective of load size....

[Hamster]

After using 28g Compex 7 1/2 and 28g Sporter 8's for a number of years, I have recently been introduced to the delights of Compex 21g for Skeet. The performance appears to be identical but the recoil is reduced, of course. As this is a reduction of 25% in the amount of lead leaving the barrel I find this intriguing. Has anyone done a side by side pattern test on these cartridges and if so, what were the results?

 

 

Chris

 

 

Yes people who manufacture these have obviously done extensive pattern testing but despite their use of words such as superior, adverse, improved etc, you`ll rarely find actual pictures of these superior patterns in the press. The reason is really quite simple. When you put less shot in, you`ll get less shot out, the pattern from a 21g load looks decidely less populated than one from 28g and that will win you no Nobel prize. When launching products you need to make people want to go out and buy your goods so you`ll say anything that sounds good but which can`t really be contested.

 

I have a lot of clay shooting experience behind me and can tell you the notion that 21g loads break everything the 28g`s do so long as you point them straight dadida, is nonsense. You will miss targets the bigger boy would have got. I am not against 21g loads for recoil reduction or cost reasons just don`t fall for witch talk.

 

You`ll also read much fuss being made of the 28g loads squashing pellets and deforming them etc, etc, but I have had a £Grand£ on the table for years for the first man to show me a pattern from each where the 21g has put more pellets in a given circle. It won`t happen. Again I`m not saying that less pellets wont lead to fewer squashed pellets, just that the far greater numbers present in the bigger loads will ALWAYS negate a miniscule loss to so called efficiency. 21g loads are OK but bigger is better so long as you don`t reach levels where recoil becomes a factor in accuracy but that really is a subject you could write books on .

[poontang]

I think Hamster sums it up perfectly.

[Kermit the frog]

Dear Hamster,

 

Your point of view has been quoted for yonks, what you do not take into account is that your 'flat pattern' is a tube perhaps 6 to 8 foot long travelling at 1000+ feet per second, your average clay only travel at 100 feet/sec, 60 mph so the flat pattern picture doesn't mean as much as you might think.

There was a French boffin who shot at banner towed behind a car, and then had a large spinning tube, like a giant lampshade to show effect of shot string.

 

I shoot with a guy who uses Express 21gr HV's in 7½'s he gets better breaks than I do with 28gr Supers in 6's, I have full and 3/4, if I hadn't seen it I wouldn't believe either, 60 yard crossers my breaks are good, he looks like he's hit them with 2 house bricks!

 

What is a fact though is that when the International disciplines went from 28gr to 24gr, every one thought that the averages would go down, they didn't they went up by better than 2%, now you can possibly explain away ISU skeet, but I think you will struggle to with an explaination for Olympic trap.

 

interesting subject,

 

be nice to have a pint and talk about it

 

kermit

[Thunderbird]

I haven't patterned them but have used both extensively. I heard an argument stating that the 21s lend themselves to a more open choke because they throw a tighter pattern, and vice versa for the 28s. My old gun I used to use for clays was fixed at CYL and 1/4, and I got some very acceptable scores with Hull 21s. I now use a M/C gun with 1/4 and 1/2 chokes and am using up my Hull 28s.

 

It's not what you'd call scientific but I was breaking some quite rangey birds last Sunday with the half choke and the 28s. Not sure the 21s would have got them though. But I'm not sure I'm good enough to judge.

[COACH]

We are regularly hitting the 65yd crosser on Wylye valleys high bank with the 21g Comp X fibre.

I once took a Beretta 686 skeet gun to try it for a laugh put in the 21g Comp X and hit eight out of ten.

I don`t bother using anything else anymore, there`s no point. They are perfect for skeet as you can get on the second bird of a pair very quick and smoothly because of the lack of recoil.

I`v done extensive tests on them and find that patterns are indeed superb and very even.

Even at 40yds the pattern through a 1/4 choke is very even and surprisingly tight.

 

Enough said.

[Cosmicblue]

It's hard for us chaps isn't it? For most things in our lives to date 'bigger/more is better', just every once in a while something comes along that possibly isn't...

[Hamster]

Dear Hamster,

 

Your point of view has been quoted for yonks, what you do not take into account is that your 'flat pattern' is a tube perhaps 6 to 8 foot long travelling at 1000+ feet per second, your average clay only travel at 100 feet/sec, 60 mph so the flat pattern picture doesn't mean as much as you might think.

There was a French boffin who shot at banner towed behind a car, and then had a large spinning tube, like a giant lampshade to show effect of shot string.

 

I shoot with a guy who uses Express 21gr HV's in 7½'s he gets better breaks than I do with 28gr Supers in 6's, I have full and 3/4, if I hadn't seen it I wouldn't believe either, 60 yard crossers my breaks are good, he looks like he's hit them with 2 house bricks!

 

What is a fact though is that when the International disciplines went from 28gr to 24gr, every one thought that the averages would go down, they didn't they went up by better than 2%, now you can possibly explain away ISU skeet, but I think you will struggle to with an explaination for Olympic trap.

 

interesting subject,

 

be nice to have a pint and talk about it

 

kermit

 

 

Hi Kermit, I have had years of t i t for tat discussion on this very subject but whenever it has come down to a pistols at dawn Lee Van Cleef job all of a sudden all you see is tumbleweed . It kind of depends what you mean by acceptable, I admit to being a hardcore clay shooter and notice things more than most. To me chipping a 40 yarder just isn`t good enough, sure these things will run 100 straight at Skeet, maybe even win a 100 birder one day when somebody shoots out of their skin but the equal of 28 gram? Don`t kid a kidder. I will pay to watch your man pulverize 60 yarders with these , not many would pulverize it with 28g.

 

As for the old chestnut of scores suddenly shooting up when shot loads were dropped, well sorry but they didn`t. Scores slowly recovered and in time records were re-broken. It is the nature of things you see, 30 years ago only a handful could afford to shoot 50 clays a week, today regular clay shooters shoot at least double that, some shoot double that everyday, so of course records would fall. Remember there is no proof that had we kept 32 gram loads all these records wouldn`t have been smashed even sooner . Nothing wrong in liking the 21 loads, just don`t read too much into 3d patterns lark/nonsense. More is better, recoil notwithstanding.

 

PS. The French boffin was the late Bob Brister, an American unsurprisingly, as they tend to test things out a bit compared to us. His book is available on the internet and what he showed was that a longer shot string is bad news for multiple and or distant hits it puts paid to another old wives tale that one should aim to miss in front safe in the knowledge that the clay will run into pellets on it`s merry travel through the shot cloud. Experienced shooters will tell you he is right , it is just as easy to miss in front as behind.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Hamster

[DSPUK]

I don't shoot 21 or 24g because they do not work in my Semi - last Sunday I went to a new ground for me and was squaded with a couple - she was having real good dusting kills and it wasn't till half way round I realised she was using 21g - I was impressed but I think us old boys will be stuck in our ways - 28g for me unless I have to come down to a O/U then might try a few.

 

Dave

[Emmsy]

ive shot 60yard crossers with a .410 loaded with 13gm of shot. would i swap these for a 28gm 12bore load, i dont think so! more lead is better.

 

if you could give me a 28gm load with the kick of a 21gm then yes is would swap.

[Thunderbird]

if you could give me a 28gm load with the kick of a 21gm then yes is would swap.

 

I can; Hull Comp X 28s. Hardly any felt difference, not for me anyway. I used to use Hull 21s in my light game gun when I was temporarily using it for clays as 100 sporting was really taking its toll on my shoulder using thumpy 28s (old injury wasn't helping). Someone saw me using the Hull 21s and mentioned to me that there was hardly any difference in felt recoil from the 28s. I got a few and lo and behold they were right.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Thunderbird

[COACH]

You are right, for a 28g they are really soft. If you don`t want to admit to your mates that your using 21g then go for the 28g Comp x. You wont believe it.