Browning Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Utter ********! apart from anything else you can't pop over and neck a wounded bunny at 1,000 yards, if it drops in the grass out of sight you are just condeming it to a slow painful death, that's if you haven't taken the hiker's head off in the process (who just happened to be in a slight depression, completely unseen by you and 900 yards away! At least with a winged or wounded pigeon or bunny at shotgun ranges it is an easy job to dispatch them quickly.. As far as I am concerned, irrespective of the moral implications, anyone shooting quarry over open ground (i.e. not a tightly controlled, DANGER FLAGGED rang at ranges beyond 500 yards)in the UK is behaving negligently, verging on the criminal. You cannot possibly be able to see if the arc of fire is safe, anyone could be there, particularly in Scotland where right to roam is law. Also, the elevation required at those sorts of ranges mean there sould be a safe fall off area behind the target which, again, in the UK, you just don't get unlike the US where you may have 1,000 miles of desert behind the target! And again... to all those who seem to be suggesting it is as easy as taking a wind reading and banging it into a ballistic calculator...... go tell it to someone who doesn't shoot these ranges competitively... I am more than happy to meet any one of you on Stickledown range @ Bisley so you can show me how easy it is... may be able to pick up some tips from you for my next match! You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so I won't waste any more of my time trying to convince the narrow minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so I won't waste any more of my time trying to convince the narrow minded. Yeahhh... ok... don't have a clue.... If you wan't to go on the NRA website, my 4,5,600 yd & 8,900 & 1,000 yd scores are all in the public domain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Vipa, with respect, shooting at long ranges at vermin is shooting cold bore, and it's not the same as shooting targets at Bisley. I know - I do both and enjoy both. Ballistic calculators, with the right inputs, are quite scarily accurate. Key - right inputs. You NEED the atmospherics, and you need accurate MV, and Coriolis, and and and. Out at Bisley, it is rare to see people whacking it in the V first up, and there's a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's not required - you get sighters, so you use them. Secondly, long range vermin = 500 or 600 yards, which in target circles is quite close still. At those ranges, precision is easier! As for the safety side, well I'm afraid there you're just talking BS - there are plenty of places out and about where you can shoot 500+ yards safely. If you can't do it with knowledge of every yard between you and the target, you don't shoot! Not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Vipa, with respect, shooting at long ranges at vermin is shooting cold bore, and it's not the same as shooting targets at Bisley. I know - I do both and enjoy both. Ballistic calculators, with the right inputs, are quite scarily accurate. Key - right inputs. You NEED the atmospherics, and you need accurate MV, and Coriolis, and and and. Out at Bisley, it is rare to see people whacking it in the V first up, and there's a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's not required - you get sighters, so you use them. Secondly, long range vermin = 500 or 600 yards, which in target circles is quite close still. At those ranges, precision is easier! As for the safety side, well I'm afraid there you're just talking BS - there are plenty of places out and about where you can shoot 500+ yards safely. If you can't do it with knowledge of every yard between you and the target, you don't shoot! Not rocket science. More than willing to meet up with any of you so you can show me how easy it is... I'll even pay for the butt marker for the day! Cold bore bunnies & pigeons at 500-1000 yards... can't wait. You guys willing to put your money where your mouths are what shall we say? £100 into a charity pot for every one you miss. 1st shot only to count at each distance so, if we shoot from 500-1,000 yds you potentially stand to contribute £500 to the PW charity of the day! Your money should be perfectly safe though as it's soooo easy! There was a post on here last year, one of the resident stalkers nearly took a rambler's head off.. had the beast in his sights, just about to pull the trigger and up popped the guys head! now, that was at 1-200 yds. At 1,000 yards with a 2 second flight time, that ramblers head could pop up at 900 yards well after the trigger was pulled. I don't care how well you think you know your land, You cannot be absolutely sure of what is where a kilometer away in all directions. Edited July 11, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Do you put in a £100 if you miss as well. if so that is a certain £500 for the charity..... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Do you put in a £100 if you miss as well. if so that is a certain £500 for the charity..... :lol: I wouldn't be stupid enough to claim I could do it Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Are Al4x and Browining having a 'relashionship',don't get me wrong I'm not homophobic, if it floats yr boat who cares. ( or is Al4x a girl ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 I do not believe anyone has actually said rabbits at 1000yards? Nobody said people hit every shot first time! But as far as safety goes, you CAN see far enough in the right direction! The point is, it's fun, safe and humane. What is the issue with it? Nobody forces people to shoot long range, and nobody forces people to crawl through the mud. Shall we just agree to disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I do not believe anyone has actually said rabbits at 1000yards? Nobody said people hit every shot first time! But as far as safety goes, you CAN see far enough in the right direction! The point is, it's fun, safe and humane. What is the issue with it? Nobody forces people to shoot long range, and nobody forces people to crawl through the mud. Shall we just agree to disagree? I was refering to the comment about the 1,050 pigeon... luck more than judgement methinks... I'd struggle to see a pigeon at 1,050 yards even cranked up to 25x let alone be certain of hitting it! And if you are now saying you can't be sure of hitting a living creature 1st time at those distances then you sure as hell can't be certain of a humane kill.. does a rabbit suddenly command less respect than a deer? Unless the land was perfectly flat, at 900 yards it would only take a depression in the ground a few feet deep to disguise a person or even just mirage. You may think you know what is between you and the target at those ranges but unless there is a patrolled exclusion zone, you cannot be absolutely certain, therefore, shooting at those distances in the open countryside is, without doubt irresponsible at best! So, is that confirmation that you are up for the challenge then Andy I'll put you down as 1st on the list And does that mean we are going to see you shooting the long range disciplines now rather than the gallery rifle stuff? Edited July 11, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 More than willing to meet up with any of you so you can show me how easy it is... I'll even pay for the butt marker for the day! Cold bore bunnies & pigeons at 500-1000 yards... can't wait. You guys willing to put your money where your mouths are what shall we say? £100 into a charity pot for every one you miss. 1st shot only to count at each distance so, if we shoot from 500-1,000 yds you potentially stand to contribute £500 to the PW charity of the day! Your money should be perfectly safe though as it's soooo easy! There was a post on here last year, one of the resident stalkers nearly took a rambler's head off.. had the beast in his sights, just about to pull the trigger and up popped the guys head! now, that was at 1-200 yds. At 1,000 yards with a 2 second flight time, that ramblers head could pop up at 900 yards well after the trigger was pulled. I don't care how well you think you know your land, You cannot be absolutely sure of what is where a kilometer away in all directions. would the bullet not go over his head if dialed in for 1000 and he was at 900 :yp: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 would the bullet not go over his head if dialed in for 1000 and he was at 900 :yp: Not if you were aiming at something at ground level at 1,000. A bloke standing up at 900 would put himself slap bang in the bullets flight path! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Not if you were aiming at something at ground level at 1,000. A bloke standing up at 900 would put himself slap bang in the bullets flight path! You have no idea about bullet trajectory either then Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedark Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Surely if long range shots were set off verticaly instead of horizontaly so they made a big parabola and dropped down into the rabbit, there'd be no need to worry about what was in between. A quick check with the local airfield would be all that was required to ensure complete safety, a few clicks of the pda and voila! - safe and certain death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) You have no idea about bullet trajectory either then Ian. How do you reach that assumption Surely before you get all cocky and full of your self we should discuss benchmarks. If you fired a 200gn bullet from a 300 win mag at a ground target 1,000 yards away, a 5'8" bloke standing up at 900 yards would get it literally between the eyes! If you were shooting a .223, the results may turn out to be slightly different! Actually, I do have quite a good idea about trajectory! I just don't have the inclination or the energy to process thoughts through ballistic calculators to post on here, your comment is irrelevant, anyone down range of a weapon being fired is in grave danger, if they weren't they'd let the long range shooters fire over the heads of those shooting from the shorter firing points! Edited July 11, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Surely if long range shots were set off verticaly instead of horizontaly so they made a big parabola and dropped down into the rabbit, there'd be no need to worry about what was in between. A quick check with the local airfield would be all that was required to ensure complete safety, a few clicks of the pda and voila! - safe and certain death. Yep... that's called a mortar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 A 308 firing a 168grn bullet will reach a hight of 30ft above the sight line before it starts to drop onto the target, at 900yds it will still be 21ft above the sight line which on a 5'8" man will still be 15ft above his head. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) A 308 firing a 168grn bullet will reach a hight of 30ft above the sight line before it starts to drop onto the target, at 900yds it will still be 21ft above the sight line which on a 5'8" man will still be 15ft above his head. Ian. Sorry... didn't realise I'd specified that calibre and projectile weight in my comments However, I feel you need to check your calculations... According to my ballistics charts, a 168gn .308 bullet leaving the barrel at 2700fps fired at a ground target at 1,000 yards will peak at approx 13ft and be 6'3" above the ground at 900. Shame for the taller rambler then! But.... irrespective of your inability to either read a ballistics chart or do the sums correctly, it is still highly irresponsible to fire at those sorts of ranges without being absolutely sure that mirage or undulating terrain isn't hiding something. The only way to be certain of that is to have a flagged, marked range or to walk it before hand, which sort of defeats the whole point of shooting at that range in the first place. Open countryside is not the place to be shooting out to 1k! Edited July 11, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Sorry... didn't realise I'd specified that calibre and projectile weight in my comments Its an example mate to show that your theory has no credence. IaN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Nice quick edit vipa :yp: Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Err.... you need to look at your maths my friend Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 i like this thread. carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Nice quick edit vipa :yp: Ian. Only reason for the edit was to add the chart and to correct the fact that I had shown drop over 1,000 yards based on a target range of 100 yards which skewed the figures slightly. With the correct range selected you can see that your numbers are way off and in fact, my original estimation (and that's all it was, off the top of my head!) stands that a bloke standing up at 900 yds (using your choice of calibre and bullet weight) is more than likely going to buy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Err.... you need to look at your maths my friend Ian. err (as you put it) why I have put the trajectory graph in from Quick target using your bullet choice, I don't see your point 'my friend?' Do you need me to put the drop chart up too? Tell you what... here you go... If we assume you are shooting from a bipod (effectively ground level) and at a target 1,000 yards away at ground level, at 900 yards the bullet is at +77.5" or 6.46 feet which is about 6'5" so granted, he would need to be a very tall rambler. Edited July 12, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) If we assume we are using a tactical scope and dialing in the clicks our BC tells us to, we are effectively re-zeroing to that range, so the only way to get an acurate trajectory plot is to tell the BC that your zero is 1,000 yards. If you leave the zero at 100 yds or whatever you zero at, it will give incorrect data. Remember, the shape of the trajectory is important. By telling the BC you have a 100 yd zero, the graph doesn't give the correct parabolic flight, in other words it doesn't account for the upward travel of the projectile. The graph below shows the drop if we tell the BC our zero is 100 yds, (all other data remains unchanged) note that there is no upward travel of the projectile taken into account, it's downhill all the way, hence the drop is much greater BUT we don't aim flat when shooting at 1,000 yards, we aim up in the air and so the bullet follows the path as in the first graph I put up. Edited July 12, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Vipa, we are talking about 500 yards generally. You can see that easy. Also out to 1K, remember the land has to be favourable - ground target so to see it, has to be on a slope, which means anything in the way WILL be below AND you have good visiibility! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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