al4x Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Many people spend more time out there shooting, than sat at home reloading and talking about it....... amen to that, I'm in the happy to go out and use it, my reloads when conditions are perfect do sub 0.5" and after that I couldn't give two hoots. I just reload more to the same spec and go and use them, I don't enjoy shooting paper its a means to an end. When something works it stays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 well oh great knowlagable one,I do know you DONT run a 243 with a 60gr pill at 3000 fps surely "your loading books" would show you this,who said anything about "pushing to the max" or or you just trying to get away from the fact Iam correct and you dont like it show me ANY published load data showing a 243 running 3000 fps using a 60gr pill,show me the min and max load along with the FPS figures,tell you what start with Alliant Powders Ok without trolling through a load of boxes looking for more Speer no13 gives start loads for its 70 grain starting as low as 2767 fps and gives 5 different recomended powders all under 3000 fps. using a 24" test barrel. Ok, its 10 grns heavier but its also 250 fps slower. Like you already mention Quickload will see it differently, however it also gives you a presure curve graph and a guide to its use and other features on the program to help in selecting the right propelant. If you use it at its best you are effectively searching for the most effective and safe load but in theory the most commonly used 155 .308 scenar load used competitively is way over the top level as it sees it. If on the other hand you just select a bullet from file, a case from file and cram it with different powders to see what you might get- more fool you. Like i say your opinion is you don't run slow but then again you have yet to get away from the wizz bang theory. Personally i like to run the lowest pressure, highest accuraccy with a mind to the speed- IT IS NOT THE ULTIMATE GOAL. Presure can change with climate and in the field rain and heat can suddenly turn a safe load into an over presure one. Personally and i am not recomending the proceedure to others, i pick the right day and run a load up till i find the max then i know how close i am running to it. I build by loads carefully selecting from both best groups and lowest SD. The message here about low fill rates has been lost somewhat, thats a shame because it can be a real issue. its so unpredictable that you could shoot the load for ages then one day BOOM! Its quite common with pistol shooters looking for the lowest recoil easiest to shoot load " hey remember that- low recoil easy to shoot lower velocity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Ok without trolling through a load of boxes looking for more Speer no13 gives start loads for its 70 grain starting as low as 2767 fps and gives 5 different recomended powders all under 3000 fps. using a 24" test barrel. Ok, its 10 grns heavier but its also 250 fps slower. Like you already mention Quickload will see it differently, however it also gives you a presure curve graph and a guide to its use and other features on the program to help in selecting the right propelant. If you use it at its best you are effectively searching for the most effective and safe load but in theory the most commonly used 155 .308 scenar load used competitively is way over the top level as it sees it. If on the other hand you just select a bullet from file, a case from file and cram it with different powders to see what you might get- more fool you. Like i say your opinion is you don't run slow but then again you have yet to get away from the wizz bang theory. Personally i like to run the lowest pressure, highest accuraccy with a mind to the speed- IT IS NOT THE ULTIMATE GOAL. Presure can change with climate and in the field rain and heat can suddenly turn a safe load into an over presure one. Personally and i am not recomending the proceedure to others, i pick the right day and run a load up till i find the max then i know how close i am running to it. I build by loads carefully selecting from both best groups and lowest SD. The message here about low fill rates has been lost somewhat, thats a shame because it can be a real issue. its so unpredictable that you could shoot the load for ages then one day BOOM! Its quite common with pistol shooters looking for the lowest recoil easiest to shoot load " hey remember that- low recoil easy to shoot lower velocity" Kenty again your moving the goal posts answer the question,show us all "published" load data for a 60gr bullet using RL7 powder,nothing more nohting less,not 70gr bullet or 308 bullets for the record I run my 7mm wsm a lot slower than what I could but using suitable powder,I do this as if I go abroad hunting I havnt got to worry about the heat and over pressure its shoot in minus degrees or 100 degrees just re zero before I start Edited September 12, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Kenty again your moving the goal posts answer the question,show us all "published" load data for a 60gr bullet using RL7 powder,nothing more nohting less,not 70gr bullet or 308 bullets for the record I run my 7mm wsm a lot slower than what I could but using suitable powder,I do this as if I go abroad hunting I havnt got to worry about the heat and over pressure its shoot in minus degrees or 100 degrees just re zero before I start Akerley, go away please we all know your history. R7 is the wrong powder i have stated that the OP knows that the rest is up to the individual armed with the knoledge. You are the least important part in all this. I doubt there even is any data I say again WRONG POWDER THE OP KNOWS THAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 anyone wish we could have a special "improved" version of Ackley appear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 amen to that, I'm in the happy to go out and use it, my reloads when conditions are perfect do sub 0.5" and after that I couldn't give two hoots. I just reload more to the same spec and go and use them, I don't enjoy shooting paper its a means to an end. When something works it stays Spot on !!! I can never understand the fixation of getting any hunting rifle to 'clover leaf' or 'tack drive', if you can get sub o.5" it is perfect for normal hunting conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 It does seem certain members threads always end in a fight/argument which is why now if "certain" members post I just leave well alone.... it certainly seems the op's target shows good results accuracy wise..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 It does seem certain members threads always end in a fight/argument which is why now if "certain" members post I just leave well alone.... it certainly seems the op's target shows good results accuracy wise..... then add to it the 3 dead foxes in the pictures section and you start to see a pattern form, much more interesting than a picture of a piece of paper with holes on that could have been made by pushing a pencil through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Akerley, go away please we all know your history. R7 is the wrong powder i have stated that the OP knows that the rest is up to the individual armed with the knoledge. You are the least important part in all this. I doubt there even is any data I say again WRONG POWDER THE OP KNOWS THAT! so you cant show "any" published load date for a 60 gr bullet producing 3000 fps ,there is no shame in being wrong,Iam glad you agree with me and many others who have commented RL7 is an unsuitable powder for the 243,hopefully the OP has taken this on board for futur reloading he may be doing,I wish him the best of luck I only wished there was so much advice and knowlage around when I first started reloading but alas there wasnt I had to learn the hard way "my history" would you like to enlighten me on this Edited September 12, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ackley go back thru posts read VERY slowly and you will see its from alliance load data. I've emailed alliance to get their view on its safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Spot on !!! I can never understand the fixation of getting any hunting rifle to 'clover leaf' or 'tack drive', if you can get sub o.5" it is perfect for normal hunting conditions. a rifle that can produce .5 "consistanly" is superb as you say you dont need anything else for hunting,BUT consistancy means "every time" not just now and again but were not debating accuracy at the moment,we can start another topic on that one if you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) a rifle that can produce .5 "consistanly" is superb as you say you dont need anything else for hunting,BUT consistancy means "every time" not just now and again but were not debating accuracy at the moment,we can start another topic on that one if you like No thank you . spare me please . Harnser . Edited September 12, 2011 by Harnser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ackley I think me and you would get on really well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Ackley I think me and you would get on really well as I said your welcome to pop down from Doncaster and use the chrono and the bench to really test your loads,I get on with everyone mate Edited September 12, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Spot on !!! I can never understand the fixation of getting any hunting rifle to 'clover leaf' or 'tack drive', if you can get sub o.5" it is perfect for normal hunting conditions. Most out of the box hunting rifles are not capable of cloverleafing, will never be a tack driver and any owner how is trying through handloading to get these results is wasting their time. However if you are running a custom rifle or a custom barrel, settling for out of the box accuracy when you know your rifle is capable of much better is cutting yourself short and not realising your rifle/ammo combination's the full potential. Consistant half moa accuracy is indeed very good accuracy and if your combination is acheiving this, yes of course its is good enough for any rifle under normal hunting conditions but accurate rifles are interesting and if yours is capable, then why not strive to extract just that little bit extra? Ian. Edited September 12, 2011 by Vermincinerator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 anyone wish we could have a special "improved" version of Ackley appear Ive got one go i put him on Ignoor, cant even see his comments now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'll take you up on it one day ackely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Consistant half moa accuracy is indeed very good accuracy and if your combination is acheiving this, yes of course its is good enough for any rifle under normal hunting conditions but accurate rifles are interesting and if yours is capable, then why not strive to extract just that little bit extra? Ian. As I said in my earlier post Ian, I would rather spend that time out in the field using the rifle, than stood at my reloading bench trying to squeeze an extra 1/8" accuracy out of it when it is not required. Edited September 12, 2011 by Browning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 As I said in my earlier post Ian, I would rather spend that time out in the field using the rifle, than stood at my reloading bench trying to squeeze an extra 1/8" accuracy out of it when it is not required. Me too Browning but i would always have that little niggle in the back of my mind that when i pulled a shot, was it my ammo or was it me? At least i know that when i have extracted every last bit of accuracy out of rifle/ammo combination, when i do pull a shot it was my fault Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 As I said in my earlier post Ian, I would rather spend that time out in the field using the rifle, than stood at my reloading bench trying to squeeze an extra 1/8" accuracy out of it when it is not required. it takes no longer to load bullets correctly and too a consistant standard than it does to to them poorly,so you wouldnt actually be spending any extra time at your bench with better ammo you can spend even more time out in the field as you will be so impressed with what you have acheived you will want to shoot even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 it takes no longer to load bullets correctly and too a consistant standard than it does to to them poorly,so you wouldnt actually be spending any extra time at your bench with better ammo you can spend even more time out in the field as you will be so impressed with what you have acheived you will want to shoot even more I disagree. All of my rifles consistently shoot sub 1/2" groups. My rifles are working rifles, they are there to do a job and they do that job very well (even if I do say so myself). They would do no better a job if they were shooting 3/8" groups. The vermin, foxes and deer will all still be just as dead. I would not have wasted time and money by trying to squeeze that extra 1/8" out of the rifle. What I would have done is spent more time shooting the rifle, which I firmly believe will gain me more confidence than an extra 1/8" smaller group size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I disagree. All of my rifles consistently shoot sub 1/2" groups. My rifles are working rifles, they are there to do a job and they do that job very well (even if I do say so myself). They would do no better a job if they were shooting 3/8" groups. The vermin, foxes and deer will all still be just as dead. I would not have wasted time and money by trying to squeeze that extra 1/8" out of the rifle. What I would have done is spent more time shooting the rifle, which I firmly believe will gain me more confidence than an extra 1/8" smaller group size. You know quite seriouly if you have a sporting rifle that shoots 1/2 moa you have more than enough gun if you can shoot it. Indeed if you get the right guy behind the trigger it will even be capable of being competitive outside of bench rest events if it has a heavier barrel to hold onto that accuraccy. 1/2" at 100 dont always add up to a gun that does 1" at 200- mind you who the heck cares its still gonna outshoot 99 out of 100 people who get behind the trigger in the field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) double post Edited September 13, 2011 by kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 the intimation ackley that a combo that does half inch groups is to quote you "poorly loaded" really shows which orrifice you are talking out of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) I disagree. All of my rifles consistently shoot sub 1/2" groups. My rifles are working rifles, they are there to do a job and they do that job very well (even if I do say so myself). They would do no better a job if they were shooting 3/8" groups. The vermin, foxes and deer will all still be just as dead. I would not have wasted time and money by trying to squeeze that extra 1/8" out of the rifle. What I would have done is spent more time shooting the rifle, which I firmly believe will gain me more confidence than an extra 1/8" smaller group size. well thats fantastic you have such a good rifle and the ability to load such consistant ammo,well done you are very luck to have such a tool.BUT others are not so lucky or gifted that no more work is needed,so your statement "I dont want to be stood at the loading bench" isnt quite right now is it,as your sorted as others may not be,if you know what I mean Edited September 13, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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