green light for badger cull

[apache]

A 10 second search on the DEFRA site locates the following document: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/documents/badger-gct0806.pdf

 

A couple of highlights

 

In deer stalking, competency can be demonstrated through well-established qualifications (Deer Stalking Certificate Levels 1 and 2) with a wide uptake on a voluntary basis. According to the British Deer Society in 2004, about half the estimated 12,000 amateur deer stalkers in UK were qualified at the basic level (Level 1) and 15% at the higher level (Level 2). The tests may be taken with or without formal training.

 

Competency to shoot any animal humanely involves a good understanding of where the vital organs lie within the body. This is taught to deer stalkers taking the Deer Stalking Certificate and in numerous textbooks, and in any case becomes familiar

23

through the dressing of deer carcasses for consumption. Deer stalkers are also taught how to place a ‘killing shot’ given different angles at which the animal presents itself to the hunter, and how to choose among different optional target areas according to circumstances.

 

The basic standard of accuracy required by the Deer Stalkers Certificate Level 1 (10 cm at 100 m) is equivalent to an 8 cm group at 80 m, or a 5 cm group at 50 m. Consequently, using a centre-fire rifle with expanding ammunition (section 3.1.5.2), the routine humane dispatch of badgers by a chest shot at normal encounter distances seems perfectly feasible for competent operators.

 

It is more difficult to estimate how many of the latter group could be considered competent to shoot deer, foxes or badgers. There are currently about 5,300 members of the British Deer Society, but an estimated 12,000 deer stalkers (these figures include Scotland). As of July 2006, 9,700 Deer Stalkers Certificates Level 1 had been issued since the inception of the scheme, with a further 7-800 in process. 1,700 Deer Stalkers Certificates Level 2 had been issued

 

Why the DSC 1 and badgers? Simple - I don't believe there is another test of it's kind that 16,500+ people have passed. There's a shooting test, safety test etc that shows a lot of skills that are applicable to any kind of (rifle) shooting. It is, as they say, a 'no brainer'. Why not pick from a population of shooters who have already proven themselves?

 

I have seen excerpts of the proposed training and DSC1 was mentioned along with bating the badgers away from sets with peanuts, shooting preferably from high seats, carcases to be double bagged and disposed of appropriately etc (cant find it online)

 

We are in a day and age where we shouldn't be surprised to prove our competence in something. If you've been shooting deer all your life and could walk the DSC1 go and do the exam only and prove it. I know people who have shot a lot of deer and don't even know what a lymph node is never mind the significance of certain diseases to public health.

 

And yes I do hold a DSC1!

[apache]

Some of the pictures from this link were in the document I saw

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/consult/files/bovinetb-guidance-ne-110719-annexg.pdf

[Redgum]

Some of the pictures from this link were in the document I saw

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/consult/files/bovinetb-guidance-ne-110719-annexg.pdf

 

Brilliant reading, this must be what they are basing it on,interesting

[Dekers]

A 10 second search on the DEFRA site locates the following document: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/documents/badger-gct0806.pdf

 

A couple of highlights

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why the DSC 1 and badgers? Simple - I don't believe there is another test of it's kind that 16,500+ people have passed. There's a shooting test, safety test etc that shows a lot of skills that are applicable to any kind of (rifle) shooting. It is, as they say, a 'no brainer'. Why not pick from a population of shooters who have already proven themselves?

 

I have seen excerpts of the proposed training and DSC1 was mentioned along with bating the badgers away from sets with peanuts, shooting preferably from high seats, carcases to be double bagged and disposed of appropriately etc (cant find it online)

 

We are in a day and age where we shouldn't be surprised to prove our competence in something. If you've been shooting deer all your life and could walk the DSC1 go and do the exam only and prove it. I know people who have shot a lot of deer and don't even know what a lymph node is never mind the significance of certain diseases to public health.

 

And yes I do hold a DSC1!

 

 

Apache, I see perfectly well why you are suggesting this, but a DSC proves someone has passed a DSC, it doesn't mean they are competent and has no bearing on what they do from the moment they have passed it. Many people in this country have passed a driving test, it sure as hell doesn't mean they are good drivers! I have passed a lot of exams, some medical related, but you wouldn't want me as your Brain Surgeon! Tests/exams, simply prove someone has passed a test/exam, it does not in any way demonstrate a level of competency. For example, a DSC lives with you forever, so someone with a DSC who hasn't shot a deer for 10 years and has forgotten everything will be able to shoot Badger, but a NON DSC Gamekeeper who shoots 200 deer, 200 foxes and 500 rabbits a year will not!

 

The problem is we live in a blame culture society, and everyone wants to see a piece of paper to cover their ****.

 

The majority of jobs I do now people ask for a Risk Assessment and a Method Statement, the vast majority of them don't have a clue what they are, they don't bother reading them, and have no idea if they are sensible and accurate, but they are happy they have a piece of paper to wave at someone if required..... CYA, that is all they are interested in, NOTHING to do with the quality/expertise of the operator!

 

ATB!

[Redgum]

Apache, I see perfectly well why you are suggesting this, but a DSC proves someone has passed a DSC, it doesn't mean they are competent and has no bearing on what they do from the moment they have passed it. Many people in this country have passed a driving test, it sure as hell doesn't mean they are good drivers! I have passed a lot of exams, some medical related, but you wouldn't want me as your Brain Surgeon! Tests/exams, simply prove someone has passed a test/exam, it does not in any way demonstrate a level of competency. For example, a DSC lives with you forever, so someone with a DSC who hasn't shot a deer for 10 years and has forgotten everything will be able to shoot Badger, but a NON DSC Gamekeeper who shoots 200 deer, 200 foxes and 500 rabbits a year will not!

 

The problem is we live in a blame culture society, and everyone wants to see a piece of paper to cover their ****.

 

The majority of jobs I do now people ask for a Risk Assessment and a Method Statement, the vast majority of them don't have a clue what they are, they don't bother reading them, and have no idea if they are sensible and accurate, but they are happy they have a piece of paper to wave at someone if required..... CYA, that is all they are interested in, NOTHING to do with the quality/expertise of the operator!

 

ATB!

So Dekers, a DSC1 doesnt make a person competent,so what is the point of any exam, course, degree, PHD ( don't tell me, you have them all). Lets abolish all exams and lets see how we get on, you been on the sherry already. Passing a DSC1 proves a person is competent in passing to a certain standard all be it not rocket science. We have to have some sort of system in place, for sure there are many Gamekeepers who shoot lots of things and are very good at it, there are also Gamekeepers that can't hit the side of a barn but confess they can. When doing my DSC1 shooting test I was a little worried that I would look foolish amongst the other,more experienced deer stalkers ( and one was a Gamekeeper), whether it was nerves or something I don't know but I was amazed at the bad shooting standard, two failed so at least they would have had to do some more practice and be good enough to hit a 4inch target prone at 100yds. Target shooters are far more reliable with their equipment accuracy wise but can they all achieve results in the field.

We cannot buy experience nor can you put an old head on young shoulders but a DSC1 is at least a start and proof that the person is committed and has achieve some sort of level of competence.

[Ackley]

Apache, I see perfectly well why you are suggesting this, but a DSC proves someone has passed a DSC, it doesn't mean they are competent and has no bearing on what they do from the moment they have passed it. Many people in this country have passed a driving test, it sure as hell doesn't mean they are good drivers! I have passed a lot of exams, some medical related, but you wouldn't want me as your Brain Surgeon! Tests/exams, simply prove someone has passed a test/exam, it does not in any way demonstrate a level of competency. For example, a DSC lives with you forever, so someone with a DSC who hasn't shot a deer for 10 years and has forgotten everything will be able to shoot Badger, but a NON DSC Gamekeeper who shoots 200 deer, 200 foxes and 500 rabbits a year will not!

 

The problem is we live in a blame culture society, and everyone wants to see a piece of paper to cover their ****.

 

The majority of jobs I do now people ask for a Risk Assessment and a Method Statement, the vast majority of them don't have a clue what they are, they don't bother reading them, and have no idea if they are sensible and accurate, but they are happy they have a piece of paper to wave at someone if required..... CYA, that is all they are interested in, NOTHING to do with the quality/expertise of the operator!

 

ATB!

couldnt agree more,most peopele "have" to pass level 1 nowerdays to be able to get a CF rifle for deer,they will get a pass and then not have a clue what to actually do if you shoot one,all you have to do is read some of the posy of sites like this.you used to be born into shooting and learn coming thoruigh the ranks but now its a fashionable hobby.

[artschool]

but now its a fashionable hobby.

 

excuse me sir, but I resemble that remark

[Redgum]

couldnt agree more,most peopele "have" to pass level 1 nowerdays to be able to get a CF rifle for deer,they will get a pass and then not have a clue what to actually do if you shoot one,all you have to do is read some of the posy of sites like this.you used to be born into shooting and learn coming thoruigh the ranks but now its a fashionable hobby.

I was fortunate to have been born into shooting but I still gained much from the DSC1. How else does someone start off who is less fortunate and if someone is going to go on 2 paid stalks a year then some training is better than none. For this very reason some counties are offering grants to do DSC1 candidates.

[Ackley]

I was fortunate to have been born into shooting but I still gained much from the DSC1. How else does someone start off who is less fortunate and if someone is going to go on 2 paid stalks a year then some training is better than none. For this very reason some counties are offering grants to do DSC1 candidates.

 

DSC 1 isnt really training now is it,its a test of memory,you learn in the field and from others,how many have level 1 and aint even seen a deer let a alone shot one BUT there more "qualified" than the guy down the road who shoots every day of his life.I didnt agree with having to do a test before you could have a rifle BUT over the past few years of reading truely shocking posts I think they should do what the Germans have to do a years training not just a memory test.

and as far as level 2 goes thats a joke theres more bent acessors out there who will pass you from there bar stool

and yes I hold level 1 and 2,has it made be a better stalker "no" it says I can get a lease from the forestry commision,Oh and I was born into shooting and learnt through the ranks

Edited December 18, 2011 by Ackley

[Redgum]

DSC 1 isnt really training now is it,its a test of memory,you learn in the field and from others,how many have level 1 and aint even seen a deer let a alone shot one BUT there more "qualified" than the guy down the road who shoots every day of his life.I didnt agree with having to do a test before you could have a rifle BUT over the past few years of reading truely shocking posts I think they should do what the Germans have to do a years training not just a memory test.

and as far as level 2 goes thats a joke theres more bent acessors out there who will pass you from there bar stool

and yes I hold level 1 and 2,has it made be a better stalker "no" it says I can get a lease from the forestry commision,Oh and I was born into shooting and learnt through the ranks

A lot of tests are memory surely though the shooting test and taking safe shots isnt, totally agree though about following the Europeans, been looking into moving to France and their deer licensing is much tougher and its an annual thing I think. Its nice to hear objection from someone who has done their DMQ's, usually I hear positive feedback from the DMQ's and those that moan are the ones that don't do it(usually because they are scared of not passing). It aint fool proof, it wont replace geniune skill and experiece but I feel its better than nothing. I know what you mean about DMC2's though, this is taking advantage of those that don't have access to their own deer in numbers. Buy a stalk and we will sign off one on your DSC2 whatever.

[Ackley]

A lot of tests are memory surely though the shooting test and taking safe shots isnt, totally agree though about following the Europeans, been looking into moving to France and their deer licensing is much tougher and its an annual thing I think. Its nice to hear objection from someone who has done their DMQ's, usually I hear positive feedback from the DMQ's and those that moan are the ones that don't do it(usually because they are scared of not passing). It aint fool proof, it wont replace geniune skill and experiece but I feel its better than nothing. I know what you mean about DMC2's though, this is taking advantage of those that don't have access to their own deer in numbers. Buy a stalk and we will sign off one on your DSC2 whatever.

the shooting test is a joke 4 inch at 100 yards and taking safe shots well thats just common sense going back to when one first gets an airgun,I hear most people fail on the shooting test "WHY" its so easy.maybe these people should spend a bit more time shooting targets on a range as when the time comes to make a split decission to squeeze one off on a live deer,this is when people go to pot.

the mentor thing is also a joke,I know of people whos had mentors who havnt got a clue.its just another why of passing the blame if anything goes wrong.

Ive been shoting for a as long as I can remember and still enjoy going out with a guide as theres always something you can pick up

I know people who passed there level 2 and still cant ID deer correctly never mind grollach one

[bignoel]

i read in the paper yesturday it is going to cost in the region of £92 mil to dispatch 100,000 badgers .who's lineing who's pocket

[Ackley]

i read in the paper yesturday it is going to cost in the region of £92 mil to dispatch 100,000 badgers .who's lineing who's pocket

 

its a frigging joke it could be done for free but as usual someone has to make a fortune namely the goverment or some stupid body they will set up

simple put a season on badgers and a min calber to stop the rimfire bridade plinking at them have a website to log on to keep records of how many has been shot and what areas

[Redgum]

the shooting test is a joke 4 inch at 100 yards and taking safe shots well thats just common sense going back to when one first gets an airgun,I hear most people fail on the shooting test "WHY" its so easy.maybe these people should spend a bit more time shooting targets on a range as when the time comes to make a split decission to squeeze one off on a live deer,this is when people go to pot.

the mentor thing is also a joke,I know of people whos had mentors who havnt got a clue.its just another why of passing the blame if anything goes wrong.

Ive been shoting for a as long as I can remember and still enjoy going out with a guide as theres always something you can pick up

I know people who passed there level 2 and still cant ID deer correctly never mind grollach one

Ackley you must spend most of your time laughing as you see most things as a joke

The reason people fail the DSC1 shooting test, and I'm not just talking novices either is because shooting a 4inch target at 100yds prone is one thing. Shooting off sticks standing at 50yds is another,yes your saying thats easy enough but alot really struggle with it as they never practice it. Zero your rifle on bags yes but do a few rounds standing, most only ever do it at live targets Another thing I notice was that some stalkers rifles are so badly set up and unzeroed even for a test, just because a Sako wearing Swaski's is in theory a very accurate set up it needs to be zeroed once in a while. One chap couldnt even hit the paper the 4inch target was printed on and moaned ' well it was fine yesterday when I was out foxing;.Thank goodness it was a paper target and not a 150yd fallow.

[Ackley]

Ackley you must spend most of your time laughing as you see most things as a joke

The reason people fail the DSC1 shooting test, and I'm not just talking novices either is because shooting a 4inch target at 100yds prone is one thing. Shooting off sticks standing at 50yds is another,yes your saying thats easy enough but alot really struggle with it as they never practice it. Zero your rifle on bags yes but do a few rounds standing, most only ever do it at live targets Another thing I notice was that some stalkers rifles are so badly set up and unzeroed even for a test, just because a Sako wearing Swaski's is in theory a very accurate set up it needs to be zeroed once in a while. One chap couldnt even hit the paper the 4inch target was printed on and moaned ' well it was fine yesterday when I was out foxing;.Thank goodness it was a paper target and not a 150yd fallow.

 

I dont find all things a joke just some,yes I agree most peoples rifle rarely see a zero range throughout the year and wonder why they miss

practice is key and always will be,along with a little commome sence,you can get sticks now which is like shooting off a bench,they support the front an rear,so missing a 4 inch target isnt an excsue any longer

I have heard it "well it was fine when I checked it" many many times when I have taken people out

Edited December 18, 2011 by Ackley