Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Any clever people out there? If so answer me this if you would please.. What cuases the shift of the point of impact when you put a moderator onto a centrefire? Obviously the whole harmonics of the rifle have changed, and there is a reduction in recoil - but why does it affect some guns more than others? I had my CZ 223 threaded for a mod and shot it with and without it on at 100 yards, the POI shift with the mod on is (as predicted by the riflesmith) exactly 70mm (2.75") right and (7.5") 190mm low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I can understand the 190mm low, as this is due to the extra weight on the end of the barrel. As for the 70mm right....I think he was guessing G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Actually bad wording on my part he predicted it would shoot a long way low right, the figures are the actual amounts from my scope clicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 As I have the Lux, the barrel is incredibaly thin, and that was why the amount of shift was predicted. If I got another gun threaded for a mod I think I would always start with a thicker and therefore stiffer barrel. My mate was shooting alongside me with a 223 speedmaster and the shift on that is just a couple of clicks. Because on mine the difference is so much, I run out out of graduations on my scope (I can set zero for mod on or off by lifting the turret ring) but then can't see accurately to get back the other zero point, which is a bit annoying. The easy answer would be to always shoot with the mod on, but to be honest I am not great fan of them as I don't like what they do the handling and feel of the gun at all As an aside, there was bloke at the range with a mod on all his guns, and he had about 4 or 5 there on the day and he now uses ASE Ultra's on everything, as they are so small and light. The guns I listened to were his 308 and 270, both with very short barrels, and they sounded reasonably quiet. He was using T8's but is having them replaced one at a time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 its completely down to chance, some my dads 75 with a T4 shot about 3" low and the 6.5 with a T8 shot about 6" low if memory serves me. Barrel weight can help, i know one chap who shoots a Sako TRG who can take his silencer on and off and the POI dosent move. But this is a heavy barrel and i suspect he just got lucky with the barrel harmonics. Not much that can be done about it as far as im aware Just dial in the new zero and leave it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I don't want to put words into anyone's mouths but are you saying it is a recoil thing, or a barrel harmonics thing? There is an oustanding discussion riding on the answer that is all (no money on this one, but just one to clear up) you don't even want to what the others are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Recoil probably has something to do with it as well, due to the fact that the moderator acts as a very efficient muzzle brake which stops the muzzle from flipping upwards. Add to that the extra weight on the end of the barrel and it gives a very stable hold on the target. It could actually also be argued the other way around, inasmuch as taking a moderator OFF the rifle causes the bullet to strike high. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 This is the reason why i wont have one fitted to my CZ .223. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 This is the reason why i wont have one fitted to my CZ .223. If you don't absolutely need one Frank don't do it, I sort of had to at the time, and I am begining to wish I hadn't now. . . I certainly won't be moderating my stalking rifle, until it is impossible for me to go out without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 moderators are just the latest fad They are nice to have, but i doubt make any difference on the quarry or shooter. They only make a difference when it comes to those around you. I doubt very much anyone shoots enough rounds in the field that a silencer really protects their hearing much. And on a range you have ear deffenders on anyway. It can help with reducing recoil as gemini or who ever he is called now, said. But they cost alot of money, can ruin the ballence of your gun and no one really has the answer for which one to go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 moderators are just the latest fad Ain't THAT the truth! It's another one of those 'European' things that we do. My mate shot a borrowed McMillan a couple of weekends ago, bloody fantastic gun, but it now has a T8 stuck on the end of the barrel talk about ruining a sweet handling rifle.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead-Eyed Duck Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 moderators are just the latest fad They are nice to have, but i doubt make any difference on the quarry or shooter. They only make a difference when it comes to those around you. I doubt very much anyone shoots enough rounds in the field that a silencer really protects their hearing much. And on a range you have ear deffenders on anyway. It can help with reducing recoil as gemini or who ever he is called now, said. But they cost alot of money, can ruin the ballence of your gun and no one really has the answer for which one to go for. Dungannick The reason that 'we' need moderators is in your answer - "I doubt make any difference on the quarry or the shooter. They only make a difference to those around you". I sell my services to new farmers using several benefits. One is that they will not hear me. They like this. One-time shooting mate of mine lost his permission on a farm because he was shooting rabbits with an unmoderated 0.243. I went with him - tremendous fun, shooting lots of rabbits at 300 yards. He did this at lambing time - yes I know he was a pillock - but he lost the shooting rights. I have a shoot near to a stud farm, and I have to use a moderator. If you want to have your heart in your mouth try shooting an unmoderated centrefire near to horses. Moderators do affect the balance of your gun. They are heavy. Full stop. You get used to it. I can shoot fairly good groups up to 100 yards freehand with mine to kill a fox - if I couldn't then I shouldn't be allowed to have one. I find that they do not affect the accuracy of my gun. I wouldn't shoot at anything freehand over 100 yards anyhow. Whether we like it or not we have to respect the feelings and opinions of others. If we don't, then bye bye shooting. Would you like to have your house near to a clay pigeon ground - within 2 miles. Now I enjoy clay pigeon shooting, but no way would I have my house near to a clay shooting ground. Try it when you are sat in your garden on a summers morning. And yes, I live 4 miles away from a clay shooting ground, and when the wind is blowing towards me it is intrusive - and I am a shooter. Taking one shot with an unmoderated centrefire - OK. At midnight it is not acceptable if you are near houses. I have been there, and seen the lights come on. Not nice. Some of us had to fight long and hard to get moderators against the wishes of the police. Please do not start an argument to get rid, as you will regret it. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead-Eyed Duck Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Dunngannick Reading my earlier reply you may misunderstand the last comment. I meant that shooters in general will regret it - one more thing to be chipped away at. Hope that this clears up any misunderstanding Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 moderators are just the latest fad They are nice to have, but i doubt make any difference on the quarry or shooter. They only make a difference when it comes to those around you. I doubt very much anyone shoots enough rounds in the field that a silencer really protects their hearing much. And on a range you have ear deffenders on anyway. It can help with reducing recoil as gemini or who ever he is called now, said. But they cost alot of money, can ruin the ballence of your gun and no one really has the answer for which one to go for. Dungannick The reason that 'we' need moderators is in your answer - "I doubt make any difference on the quarry or the shooter. They only make a difference to those around you". I sell my services to new farmers using several benefits. One is that they will not hear me. They like this. One-time shooting mate of mine lost his permission on a farm because he was shooting rabbits with an unmoderated 0.243. I went with him - tremendous fun, shooting lots of rabbits at 300 yards. He did this at lambing time - yes I know he was a pillock - but he lost the shooting rights. I have a shoot near to a stud farm, and I have to use a moderator. If you want to have your heart in your mouth try shooting an unmoderated centrefire near to horses. Moderators do affect the balance of your gun. They are heavy. Full stop. You get used to it. I can shoot fairly good groups up to 100 yards freehand with mine to kill a fox - if I couldn't then I shouldn't be allowed to have one. I find that they do not affect the accuracy of my gun. I wouldn't shoot at anything freehand over 100 yards anyhow. Whether we like it or not we have to respect the feelings and opinions of others. If we don't, then bye bye shooting. Would you like to have your house near to a clay pigeon ground - within 2 miles. Now I enjoy clay pigeon shooting, but no way would I have my house near to a clay shooting ground. Try it when you are sat in your garden on a summers morning. And yes, I live 4 miles away from a clay shooting ground, and when the wind is blowing towards me it is intrusive - and I am a shooter. Taking one shot with an unmoderated centrefire - OK. At midnight it is not acceptable if you are near houses. I have been there, and seen the lights come on. Not nice. Some of us had to fight long and hard to get moderators against the wishes of the police. Please do not start an argument to get rid, as you will regret it. Don All very true, infact i didnt say we didnt need silencers or i didnt want them, just listed some of the disadvantages. I also cant see us loosing them before we loose guns themselves because of our modern society and the health and safety adicted world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I won't requote all that lot, but sufice it to say I would go further than to say they don't affect accuracy they positively improve it, but I don't think they shoud be used just for the sake of it. Some situations demand there use and others don't - the hills of Scotland for instance are the last place on earth you need a moderator, wheras a more urban environment would benefit from using one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I won't requote all that lot, but sufice it to say I would go further than to say they don't affect accuracy they positively improve it, but I don't think they shoud be used just for the sake of it. I would say that as I don,t like wearing ear protection when out foxing I will always have my rifles threaded to take a sound moderator ...........I already suffer from tinitus you see ..............So I know a bit about it . Damage to your hearing can be caused by just one loud bang ..........It does'nt have to be caused by exposure over a long time period ........ Surely that is the primory reason for a sound moderator is it not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miffy Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I would say that as I don,t like wearing ear protection when out foxing I will always have my rifles threaded to take a sound moderator ...........I already suffer from tinitus you see ..............So I know a bit about it . Damage to your hearing can be caused by just one loud bang ..........It does'nt have to be caused by exposure over a long time period ........ Surely that is the primory reason for a sound moderator is it not I always use a sound mod and wouldn't wanna shoot without one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miffy Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 i personally have never shot on the scottish hills but if i ever did (i doubt i ever will) i would definately take my rifle complete with mod I thought that on the hills that rifles are carried in slips until the shot is on, so therefore the balance would not be upset that much surely?? I just know that i would rather save my hearing regardless of weight or looks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 i personally have never shot on the scottish hills but if i ever did (i doubt i ever will) i would definately take my rifle complete with mod I thought that on the hills that rifles are carried in slips until the shot is on, so therefore the balance would not be upset that much surely?? I just know that i would rather save my hearing regardless of weight or looks But even so, if you have a Stag in your cross hairs worth £££££ if you shoot it, the last thing you want is your rifle wanting to disapear over the front of the sticks. The mods dont make shooting standing even with sticks easy, and they add alot of weight to a gun that you have to drag up and down hills all day. If i was adament to protect my hearing on the hills then i would leave the mod at home and take a 50p set of foam ear plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miffy Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I'd still take the mod as when i shoot Roe, Muntjac, Fallow etc. from sticks i tend to leave the Mod on and have never noticed the rifle trying to disappear over the front of the sticks. I must be made abit stronger than most as carrying the mod all day when stalking doesn't bother me at all and carrying it on the hill in a rifle slip would be summat the kids could do. As i said though i won't be shooting in the Scottish hills and i definately have got better things to spend loads of money on rather than shooting a hill Stag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 (edited) I find when wearing ear plugs /defenders my shooting suffers as a result ...........weird I know but I need all my senses to shoot accurate and well . As for the weight issue .............bunch of *****............get some weetabix down yer neck Edited June 6, 2006 by henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I find when wearing ear plugs /defenders my shooting suffers as a result ...........weird I know but I need all my senses to shoot accurate and well . As for the weight issue .............bunch of ***** ............get some weetabix down yer neck who's talking your put off ballence by a set of ear deffenders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye ive Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I find when wearing ear plugs /defenders my shooting suffers as a result ...........weird I know but I need all my senses to shoot accurate and well . As for the weight issue .............bunch of ***** ............get some weetabix down yer neck who's talking your put off ballence by a set of ear deffenders yep ........................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miffy Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 As for the weight issue .............bunch of ***** ............get some weetabix down yer neck I eat shredded Wheat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 i personally have never shot on the scottish hills but if i ever did (i doubt i ever will) i would definately take my rifle complete with mod I thought that on the hills that rifles are carried in slips until the shot is on, so therefore the balance would not be upset that much surely?? I just know that i would rather save my hearing regardless of weight or looks No they don't Miffy, well not the one I have been out with anyway, you carry the rifle and the sound carries away down the valley. I have been in the situation when I have been fortunate enough to fire 4 shots in fairly quick succession (and no contrary, to common belief they don't all run off in different directions) and my ears weren't ringing afterwards. This may sound weird but that boooom is actaully part of the experience. My mate took his rifle+mod on our first trip and never took it again, every ounce counts yomping up and down those hills all day lond as well. Horses for courses really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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