Lead shot and soil samples

[BlaserF3]

Blaser the same argument could be used to say there is no need to shoot targets or clays. I know several guys who shoot clays with steel quite successfully. When shooting such targets its easy to make sure they are kept within range of the lighter steel loads. So it could also be argued that as far as ballistics go there is no need to use lead for shooting targets. A light load of steel will do the job.

 

As for buying duck instead of shooting wildfowl. Domestic waterfowl have a completely different taste and fat content to wild ducks or geese. Tame duck or goose is a very greasy meat and in cooking has the be “ pricked “ to get the grease out of the meat. Wild birds have very little if any far and fat needs to be added to the meat. Wild duck\ goose is some of the most healthy meat you can eat unlike domestic waterfowl.

 

Just because you do not live in the US makes no difference to the results over here . A UK mallard is just as much at risk from lead as a US one. Ant to say you are not bothered about birds dieing in another country shows a rather daft outlook on life. The majority of wildfowl we get in winter in this country come from foreign countries including a few , ie , Atlantic Brents , from America.

 

 

As you already have a semi auto I cant see your problem. The recoil I get from my semi auto is a lot less than the recoil of some lead shells in a side by side.

 

 

Selfish stick in the mud attitudes will be the death knoll of shooting unless we adapt and change with public opinion.

 

I'll be honest and I don't care what you shoot, or what you shoot it with, and I do not care one iota about poisoned birds in either this country or another country.

 

I am not being selfish but you seem not to be bothered about the broader scenario if lead is banned, What do air guns shoot best with? .22 rifles just think how many different guns shoot lead projectiles. If there is a ban on lead many gun shops will close as there will be no customers, shooting grounds will close, just think about all this with your selfish attitude saying steel is good blah blah blah.

 

The great BASC might even become bankrupt if there are not enough shooters left. I suggest you remove your blinkers and look at what might just happen.

[David BASC]

Some may not be aware of the non lead airgun ammo, some of which has been around for decades and other that has come on the market more recently.

 

Non lead ammo for the larger calibre centerfire rifles works well. One chap I know who shoots allot of deer has not used lead bullets for years.

 

As for the 22 rimfire ammo, can’t remember any evidence from anywhere that suggested ducks, geese or any other birds or other animal was being poisoned by 22 rim fire ammunition.

 

You go one about ‘show me the UK evidence’ and now say you don’t care if birds are poisoned. I could not believe it when I read that, talk about giving ammo to the antis!

 

You say others are blinkered…pot calling kettle black I feel.

 

But back to the original post, some farmers and other land owners don’t want people shooting lead over their land; it’s as simple as that. Because there are alternatives we can carry on shooting, but make sure you know the limits of the gun /cartridge combination you are using regardless of what shot type you use.

 

Don’t rely of charts and graphs published in magazines, but get out there and pattern your gun, talk to others who are using different types of shot make and size, learn from practical experience, and carry on shooting!

 

David

Edited February 1, 2012 by David BASC

[sitsinhedges]

Some may not be aware of the non lead airgun ammo, some of which has been around for decades and other that has come on the market more recently.

 

Non lead ammo for the larger calibre centerfire rifles works well. One chap I know who shoots allot of deer has not used lead bullets for years.

 

As for the 22 rimfire ammo, can’t remember any evidence from anywhere that suggested ducks, geese or any other birds or other animal was being poisoned by 22 rim fire ammunition.

 

You go one about ‘show me the UK evidence’ and now say you don’t care if birds are poisoned. I could not believe it when I read that, talk about giving ammo to the antis!

 

You say others are blinkered…pot calling kettle black I feel.

 

But back to the original post, some farmers and other land owners don’t want people shooting lead over their land; it’s as simple as that. Because there are alternatives we can carry on shooting, but make sure you know the limits of the gun /cartridge combination you are using regardless of what shot type you use.

 

Don’t rely of charts and graphs published in magazines, but get out there and pattern your gun, talk to others who are using different types of shot make and size, learn from practical experience, and carry on shooting!

 

David

 

No-one uses non lead airgun ammo, and what happens to subsonic shotgun cartridges or the small bores that can't take the volume that steel would require.

 

To be honest even suggesting that there is a viable alternative to lead airgun ammo is laughable when the peformance with lead is marginal at best anyway.

[BlaserF3]

David, a question...Is there going to be a TOTAL ban on all lead used in firearms?

 

The antis have enough evidence already and I am not guilty of polluting the foreshore, as the last bird I shot was a Starling in about 1965.

[David BASC]

Non lead airgun ammo is available and has been available for years. Some non lead airgun pellets were tested not that long ago by one of the airgun mags for example.

 

I can't agree that the performance of lead airgun pellets is 'marginal at best' National and world target, field target and hunter field target championships are won with lead pellets, and thousands and thousands of pests are culled using lead pellets.

 

There are low and high pressure steel cartridges already available.

 

Non lead ammo is available for 20 (steel and ITM), 16 and 410.(Bismuth)

 

There is nothing at all before Parliament that is remotely connected to a partial or total lead ban in the UK. As I have posted several times, the LAG are looking at what, if any risks there are to the environment / food from lead shot.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[sitsinhedges]

Non lead airgun ammo is available and has been available for years. Some non lead airgun pellets were tested not that long ago by one of the airgun mags for example.

 

I can't agree that the performance of lead airgun pellets is 'marginal at best' National and world target, field target and hunter field target championships are won with lead pellets, and thousands and thousands of pests are culled using lead pellets.

 

There are low and high pressure steel cartridges already available.

 

Non lead ammo is available for 20 (steel and ITM), 16 and 410.(Bismuth)

 

There is nothing at all before Parliament that is remotely connected to a partial or total lead ban in the UK. As I have posted several times, the LAG are looking at what, if any risks there are to the environment / food from lead shot.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

Steel airgun pellets were introduced decades ago in the form of Prometheus, there is a reason why despite all the hype no-one actually uses them. Can you point me to where some field target comps have been won with non lead pellets by choice?

 

Hunting with lead pellets is a very short range affair because the legal limit places big restrictions on the ability to kill effectively at any distance. Trying to use zinc alternatives isn't going to do anything but reduce that range to the point where it becomes futile because you will still be trying to work within the sub12 envelope without the ballistic efficiency of lead to hold on to what little energy there is in the projectile.

This is actually more significant to me than shotgun cartridges, and it will destroy the entry into shooting sports if ever introduced.

[David BASC]

To the very best of my knowledge no competitions have been won with non lead.

 

I am aware of some pest controllers that use the plastic skirt / metal head Prometheus though.

 

Because there are so many lead pellets with so many different weights and designs its not at all surprising that airgunners want this flexibility.

 

I agree that the maximum range you should take live quarry with an airgun is limited to the maxim range that you can confidently and consistently hit a target roughly the size of a 20p piece - i.e. the kill zone on airgun quarry.

 

However, I am confident though that airguns producing at least 10 ftlbs muzzle energy are certainly capable of clean kills out to 35m, possibly further, but again its more to do with the limits of the airgunner than the airgun!

 

Is it your view that the Zink pellets that are around are not capable of kills up to 35m?

 

Best wishes

 

David

[sitsinhedges]

To the very best of my knowledge no competitions have been won with non lead.

 

I am aware of some pest controllers that use the plastic skirt / metal head Prometheus though.

 

Because there are so many lead pellets with so many different weights and designs its not at all surprising that airgunners want this flexibility.

 

I agree that the maximum range you should take live quarry with an airgun is limited to the maxim range that you can confidently and consistently hit a target roughly the size of a 20p piece - i.e. the kill zone on airgun quarry.

 

However, I am confident though that airguns producing at least 10 ftlbs muzzle energy are certainly capable of clean kills out to 35m, possibly further, but again its more to do with the limits of the airgunner than the airgun!

 

Is it your view that the Zink pellets that are around are not capable of kills up to 35m?

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

It's my opinion that zinc will be less efficient and so have less energy at the point of impact along with being more affected by wind. It will also be harder than lead and so less likely to deform on impact and transfer what little energy it has to the animal. 35m is no great range for lead pellets using the equipment we have available today and they will still have the necessary punch to kill cleanly much farther.

 

There is also the fact that if the muzzle energy differs by much compared to lead we will be stuck with having to take the worst case with regards to staying within the law yet actually shoot a completely different pellet out of our guns, ie, if a zinc pellet delivers 9fpe at the muzzle compared to a lead pellets 11fpe we would be stuck using a 9fpe zinc pellet because the lead one would alweays be chosen by the Police if your gun was to be tested for compliance.

[David BASC]

I would agree, its basic physics, that if there are two objects of different weights that are fired at the same initial velocity, the lighter one will carry less kinetic energy at any given distance from the muzzle.

 

But the same two objects given the same amount of energy in the first place, the lighter one will go faster and the heaver one will go slower.

 

How do pellets kill? Rob Douglas did an interesting report in Wildfowling magazine a few years ago, and it was also discussed at the BASC Wildfowling conference back in 2002.

 

In high velocity scenarios, when the bullet passes through animal/bird tissues, or shatters soon after impact inside the animal, it creates enormous shock waves which destroy not only the tissues, through which the bullet or bullet fragment actually passes but also adjacent tissue to the bullets trajectory.

 

But shotgun and airgun pellets are much slower and carry far less energy. What kills quarry with shotgun pellets or indeed airgun pellets is by causing significant damage to critical tissues by the pellet penetrating deep enough through other non critical tissues.

 

Critical tissues include:

Brain

Spinal (upper) chord

Heart

Lungs

Pulmonary artery

Aorta

 

Death is caused either by destruction of the central nervous system so the signals controlling heart / lung cease and blood circulation ceases, or massive blood loss resulting in loss of blood circulation, for example.

 

I remember reading many a tale in the airgun press in the past about people trying to chest shoot pigeons, the pellet hits, all the energy is dispersed within the quarry, but it doesnt die, its wounded and flys off, hence the quite correct preference for headshots on pigeons.

 

35m is plenty far enough, most rabbits, pheasant, pigeons etc are shot well within that range with shotguns and airgun quarry too with airguns.

 

If longer range shooting is your thing then the 17hmr or 22 c/f cartridges are probably the order of the day, but again is not a mater of how far the pellet / bullet can kill at, its down to the maximum range the shooter is accurate to.

 

David

Edited February 1, 2012 by David BASC

[sitsinhedges]

I would agree, its basic physics, that if there are two objects of different weights that are fired at the same initial velocity, the lighter one will carry less kinetic energy at any given distance from the muzzle.

 

But the same two objects given the same amount of energy in the first place, the lighter one will go faster and the heaver one will go slower.

 

How do pellets kill? Rob Douglas did an interesting report in Wildfowling magazine a few years ago, and it was also discussed at the BASC Wildfowling conference back in 2002.

 

In high velocity scenarios, when the bullet passes through animal/bird tissues, or shatters soon after impact inside the animal, it creates enormous shock waves which destroy not only the tissues, through which the bullet or bullet fragment actually passes but also adjacent tissue to the bullet’s trajectory.

 

But shotgun and airgun pellets are much slower and carry far less energy. What kills quarry with shotgun pellets or indeed airgun pellets is by causing significant damage to critical tissues by the pellet penetrating deep enough through other non critical tissues.

 

Critical tissues include:

Brain

Spinal (upper) chord

Heart

Lungs

Pulmonary artery

Aorta

 

Death is caused either by destruction of the central nervous system so the signals controlling heart / lung cease and blood circulation ceases, or massive blood loss resulting in loss of blood circulation, for example.

 

I remember reading many a tale in the airgun press in the past about people trying to chest shoot pigeons, the pellet hits, all the energy is dispersed within the quarry, but it doesn’t die, its wounded and fly’s off, hence the quite correct preference for headshots on pigeons.

 

35m is plenty far enough, most rabbits, pheasant, pigeons etc are shot well within that range with shotguns and airgun quarry too with airguns.

 

If longer range shooting is your thing then the 17hmr or 22 c/f cartridges are probably the order of the day, but again is not a mater of how far the pellet / bullet can kill at, its down to the maximum range the shooter is accurate to.

 

David

 

So are zinc pellets ballistically as good as lead ones

 

If not the marginal uses for hunting with air rifles will be diminshed to the point where it's not worth bothering, not to mention that not everyone wants or is allowed access to firearms for pest control. Lead pellets can certainly dispatch prey plenty past 35yards reliably.

[Guest cookoff013]

So are zinc pellets ballistically as good as lead ones

 

as its less dense i suppose it isnt as good.

 

but, there is a flip side to using "less dense" materials, The pellets would be lighter so regardless of energy restriction or not, the pellets will shoot faster. thats a fact. they may not hold on to the energy as it goes down range, but at the muzzel it will be fast. under the 12ftlbs rule

 

take a 7 grain .177 pellet. 850+ fps for sub 12ftlbs. i know its only crunching a few numbers but its feasable.

the weights of non toxic pellets are light. the gamo ones are 5.4 grains.

 

speed would be... 1000fps, thats for 11.99ftlbs.

 

if speed was the key, then its advantage. we`d just end up shooting it just as well as lead.

[sitsinhedges]

I just compared a 6.5grain lead pellet (representing a light zinc pellet) to a 8.4grain one on Chairgun, both leaving the barrel at 11.5fpe. At 50yards the 6.5grain one has 3.3fpe left compared to the 8.4grain pellet that has 3fpe MORE left.

 

The 10mph wind drift for the lighter pellet is also 11.5inches compared to 4.9inches for the heavier at 50 yards.

 

Add the ballistic inefficiency of of zinc or suchlike to the mix and I think it's obvious what's going to happen if we're forced to accept **** ammo.

[David BASC]

I have no doubt that at 50m or possibly further, that a 177 or 22 lead pellet that left the air rifle at 10+ ftlbs will have sufficient energy to cleanly kill (head shot for example) any airgun quarry.

 

But how many airgun hunters can consistently hit a target a little smaller than a 20p piece at these ranges in field conditions?

 

As I said before, it’s not so much what the gun / pellet / cartridge can deliver, the limits of clean kills are almost always down to the person squeezing the trigger.

 

However, in context with the original post, I have never heard anyone not being allowed to shoot lead airgun pellets over farmland, and I am not surprised, even the most active airgun hunter is unlikely to deposit very much lead on the land are they?

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

I just compared a 6.5grain lead pellet (representing a light zinc pellet) to a 8.4grain one on Chairgun, both leaving the barrel at 11.5fpe. At 50yards the 6.5grain one has 3.3fpe left compared to the 8.4grain pellet that has 3fpe MORE left.

 

The 10mph wind drift for the lighter pellet is also 11.5inches compared to 4.9inches for the heavier at 50 yards.

 

Add the ballistic inefficiency of of zinc or suchlike to the mix and I think it's obvious what's going to happen if we're forced to accept **** ammo.

 

i think you are way off, i think the 3.3flb at 50yards for a zinc pellet would be "at most".

[Floating Chamber]

My problem is too much soil in my shot. These shooting grounds are a good source!!!!

[David BASC]

And some shooting grounds are having their land 'sifted' to remove the lead and re-selling it on the open market, as the high price of heavy metals makes it financially viable.

 

I seem to remember reading an article in one of the shooting mags within the last 12 months or so about some people how were re-loading spent shot, possible issue there with mixing sizes if its not sorted properly though.

 

Not possible though of the shot falls into woodland as it’s much more difficult to get at the soil cost effectively I am told.

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

the problem with reclaimed shot, there will be some steel shot of various sizes, grit and stones, let alone various sizes of lead shot.

 

however it is a source of lead to be melted down.