paulr5604 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Can i take a non sgc holder decoying with me if i have the farmers permission or is it a big no no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotHunter96 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 i dont think so as im sure you need to be with the occupier of the land and i dont think youll count as the occupier but im sure i will be corrected if im wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 i dont think so as im sure you need to be with the occupier of the land and i dont think youll count as the occupier but im sure i will be corrected if im wrong I think 'occupier' as it relates to this subject has been defined as (or accepted by the Home Office) to mean, amongst others, as being a person who has the shooting rights/permission, etc, for the land in question. It's n the HO guidance, I think. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Search is your friend. In short, no one definitively knows the answer as the courts have not defined the definition of occupier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Can i take a non sgc holder decoying with me if i have the farmers permission or is it a big no no! Yes you can, I think he has to be no more than 50yds away from you or something like that but as long as you have permission yes you can take a non SGC holder with you and lend him one of your guns. I would only share a hide with someone I trust with my life, if your mate has no experience then maybe just one gun shared and teach him the ropes. Of course the law is entirely differant with FAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Search is your friend. In short, no one definitively knows the answer as the courts have not defined the definition of occupier. They have but not in the sense of shooting and lending firearms, I don't think. Although I think someone mentioned that BASC knew of a recent case on another thread. An occupier has been defined depending upon what degree of control over the property the person has. The more control the more likely he is to be an occupier. Also, there can be more than one occupier. If someone has a properly drawn up lease for the shooting rights to the exclusion of everyone else then I think it's almost certainly the case that he is an occupier. As you go down the scale to someone who has merely turned up on spec to shoot a few bunnies on the land of a farmer he just met in the pub last night then I suppose it may be that he isn't an occupier as he has essentially no control over anything on the land. Then again, if the farmer says 'you are the only one allowed on today' then I suppose he may be held to be an occupier. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Paradoxically, it's easier to borrow a rifle than a shotgun on private land if you're not certificated. As you've asked for legal, the "how are you supposed to learn" element can be omitted. As said the definition of "the occupier", the only person who can give permission and in whose presence the borrower must remain, has yet to be tried in court. The best description that I've heard is that an occupier must have a proven claim to the land. EG, landowner, tennant or holder of any shooting rights. Joe Bloggs having permission to shoot pigeon probably doesn't rate too highly: Personally, I certainly wouldn't be too keen on taking that reason to court while standing in the dock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes you can, I think he has to be no more than 50yds away from you or something like that but as long as you have permission yes you can take a non SGC holder with you and lend him one of your guns. I would only share a hide with someone I trust with my life, if your mate has no experience then maybe just one gun shared and teach him the ropes. Of course the law is entirely differant with FAC. Just done some research to back up my info and my apologies if I'm wrong,it seems this is not the case. I shot for years as a youngster with my father, didnt get a SGC till I was 16 and know loads of people who have taken others shooting. Did the law change at sometime, whatever, my apologies it does seem you either have to own the land or be the legal occupier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 This is what it says on my firearms dept website. Can I shoot without a certificate? Yes under certain circumstances – many shotgun clubs and shooting grounds hold ‘special shooting days’ where non-certificate holders can fire club shotguns to test their interest in the sport. Approved rifle and muzzle-loading clubs will allow you to shoot club guns providing you are a club member. There are normally provisions within the club rules, which allow non-members to become "guests", sponsored by a club member, and to use club weapons to shoot on a limited number of days. Another way to shoot shotguns and even rifles without a certificate is when you are accompanied by the landowner or his agent, (e.g. game warden), shooting on his land, using his weapons within the limitations of the authorities on the certificate. However, as a non-certificate holder, you cannot borrow another person's gun, if he is not the occupier of the land you intend to shoot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulr5604 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Just done some research to back up my info and my apologies if I'm wrong,it seems this is not the case. I shot for years as a youngster with my father, didnt get a SGC till I was 16 andi know loads of people who have taken others shooting. Did the law change at sometime, whatever, my apologies it does seem you either have to own the land or be the legal occupier. Okay thanks for the info just thought i would check before offering the father-in-law a chance to go out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulpicide Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 It says occupier or their agent which is what you are if you are controlling pest on their say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 It says occupier or their agent which is what you are if you are controlling pest on their say so. As above.As long as you have permission you become agent for the land and so have the say,as long as the owner is happy with it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 As has been said, this has not been tested in court and therefore comes down to your FEO/FLM's opinion ( ) as to what the term 'occupier' means. 99/100 you'll be ok, but if you end up being the '1', it'll cost you quite a bit of money unless your shooting organisation is willing to pay for your court fees This was one of the thing's ACPO's Adrian Whiting recommended to be sorted out following the Cumbria inquiry but so far it's just sat on the backburner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sako and/or Vulpicide, If you've picked up the "agent" bit from Redgum's Firearms Dept. website, please note that it's is contained in a sentence referring to shotguns AND rifles. The agent bit only refers to rifles. For shotguns it remains just the occupier. If it has been sourced elsewhere, could you give that reference as this does affect me. Many thanks, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sako and/or Vulpicide, If you've picked up the "agent" bit from Redgum's Firearms Dept. website, please note that it's is contained in a sentence referring to shotguns AND rifles. The agent bit only refers to rifles. For shotguns it remains just the occupier. If it has been sourced elsewhere, could you give that reference as this does affect me. Many thanks, Phil The reason i know is,last October i had a day booked shooting with the old fella and brother,and the old fellas certificate had not come through yet.He gave it up 2 years ago and had reapplied.I phoned the FLO,and he confirmed if the guide has permission or it is his own land,then there are no problems with taking a non sgc holder out.He also said if we had any problems with any plod doon there to give his number and he would sort it out.Also,i take the wee man out with his .410,withoot a certificate because with permission i am the occupier/agent through permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sako and/or Vulpicide, If you've picked up the "agent" bit from Redgum's Firearms Dept. website, please note that it's is contained in a sentence referring to shotguns AND rifles. The agent bit only refers to rifles. For shotguns it remains just the occupier. If it has been sourced elsewhere, could you give that reference as this does affect me. Many thanks, Phil Also Phil,i wouldnt take anyones words for gospel from here,and always check with your FLO no matter how "sure" the source is.Check with your own one,and if he disagrees ill give you a number and they can discuss the ins and outs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulr5604 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Cheers for all the replies i think that i will check with my fao before going out with someone that doesnt hold a sgc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.