henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Henry... Show me the proof that you are right and Dawkins is wrong.. Why? Let Richard prove me wrong? "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." Hitchens Tell me (honestly) that when you were 6 and your parents, peers and didaskalos' told you Santa was real, that you questioned them or, did you like all other kids just accept it as real and true.... Apply the same as above to being told we all goto heaven when we die and that'd Jesus existed........ Unfortunately for us all at that age we find it hard to think abstractly and just take onboard whatever we are told by those who care for us, some just go on that way forever, others look at both sides and rather than stay on one side because you cannot or will not try to see from another perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Back at ya babe! Unfortunately for us all at that age we find it hard to think abstractly and just take onboard whatever we are told by those who care for us, some just go on that way forever, others look at both sides and rather than stay on one side because you cannot or will not try to see from another perspective. Easy tiger, I have been involved in the church and spent more time researching religion and Christianity than most in my 46 years and it is against this background that I made my decision to wash my hands of the whole affair.. Even the clergy (and I refer to a sermon given at a recent mass I had to attend) see us now in a 'post religious society' even the church is becoming more enlightened and looking at god as something other than some old book tells us 'it' is. The only religious movement that is gathering pace and not slowly declining into obscurity is Islam, and that is certainly not because Islam has some evidence to back it's beliefs.. I'll let you fill in the gaps as to why! I can only say it so many times... How anyone could possibly be suckered into a belief system purely on the say so of others, with no evidence or proof is... Completely beyond my comprehension... The argument against religion, is far more logical and acceptable than the argument for but is doomed to failure... As you have already quoted, no proof isn't proof that god doesn't exist... That is the usual retort, along with the testing of ones faith being the other when pro-religious types are confronted with logical dismissal or argument.. As I don't sign up for god club, neither do I sign up for non god club... To me, the argument is silly. I will leave this with the best analogy out there.... If god is real then so is Santa, elves, middle earth and the hobbits.. As I can't prove they don't exist, I can also not disprove thier existence, therefore, if someone tells me they exist I must just roll over and accept that they are right and therefore buy into thier beliefs because nothing I can say or do will change things... Faith and religion are scary devices, they have been used to control and subjugate populations for millennia and are responsible for most if the most heinous atrocities throughout history. Just because you see yourself at the benign, helpful end of the scale is irrelevant. Your contribution and involvement fuels and perpetuates religion at all points of the spectrum. Religion is inherently evil.. As I have stated before.. There are good men in the world and evil men in the world but for good men to perform evil takes religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 .....There are good men in the world and evil men in the world but for good men to perform evil takes religion What? How big a brush do you have? What about the good that is done in the name of religion, you have never mentioned that as far as I can see? Yeah there are things that need to be addressed but name an institution that doesn`t have these wrong things? There are many things in your answers that point to Catholicism and I won`t be drawn into having a go at them, however you say nothing of the shop floor of religion, where the work happens and that isn`t a minister, priest or vicar I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) What? How big a brush do you have? What about the good that is done in the name of religion, you have never mentioned that as far as I can see? Yeah there are things that need to be addressed but name an institution that doesn`t have these wrong things? There are many things in your answers that point to Catholicism and I won`t be drawn into having a go at them, however you say nothing of the shop floor of religion, where the work happens and that isn`t a minister, priest or vicar I am talking about. http://forums.pigeon...te/page__st__60 Post #64 Are you actually reading these posts Henry or just preaching with your fingers in your ears? Define the meaning of 'a cult' and then tell me why it doesn't apply to christianity, in fact, any religious belief system? I think if you get a calculator out and start tallying up those 'saved' by religion (and not in a silly spiritual sense) I mean real world saved, helped, bettered... against those killed, maimed and plunged into poverty in the name of it... the scales will be woefully one sided, and not in the side you would like to think they would be! With regards to Catholicism.. don't forget that this is the basis for all modern day christianity... it is all we had until Henry 8th decided he wasn't getting enough and so sacked the whole establishment and made his own up! In your OP you tried to liken religion to reloading.. and went on to say "That is why I likened it to reloading, if I just got the gear and rammed a primer in an empty case filled it with some cheap powder and bullet on top and go out to fire the round......" but that is exactly what you are willing to do with religion! If I told you that the best load for your .308 was a 175gn SMK over 50gns of bullseye... would you go and use that load because I said it wouyld work great and would be safe? What if I got a few more people on my side to tell you the same? a few, hundred, a few thousand.... what about a few million? Non of these people have ever tried it, there is no proof, they are just convinced it will be ok.... That should mean that you will too and happily go and do it... I hope you live to tell the tale... your rifle certainly won't! No.... of course you wouldn't just accept what the crowd told you... you would want empiricle evidence that itr was safe, your life depends on it, you would be insane not to... and yet, that is what you do every day with your beliefs... and yet here we are not just talking about your life, we are also talking about your soul... your eternal afterlife! You say, you did the same with christianity as you did with reloading... you went and did research, and spoke to experts etc.... NO... you did not do the same... with reloading you researched proven fact that has experimental data running right through it... your research into religion was research into what others believe, nothing more... stories from 2,000 years ago! Edited September 22, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 my reloading ,the photo is the proof ,as for god we have no proof there for iam not a believer,but because iam an infidel you hate me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Faith in your scales is always there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 my reloading ,the photo is the proof ,as for god we have no proof there for iam not a believer,but because iam an infidel you hate me ? Where did I say that? If you want proof, you will never get it, that is why it is called faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 he was into reloading then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Pete, I would like to ask again, where did I say I hate you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Russell's Teapot - (marvelous) "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time" - Bertrand Russell Edited September 22, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Considering where we posting - isnt this a little out of place? There must be loads of sites where those who are religeous can discuss to their hearts content. Its time for the 'off' switch. Nothing dries my mouth more than evangelical chat - sorry. Could'nt agree more ! maybe i'll look up Churchwatch and see if there talking about shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 @ Scully & Vipa. Those are exactly the sorts of debate i wanted to bring forward, however what you have done is only brought your own experiences of "church". They are as distorted as the minds of the fools who flew into the WTC. Along with that are the broad brush strokes that are used by many here, if I called you Thomas Hamilton I would expect you to be offended, I know I would be By all means call it rubbish and indoctrinal and a huge waste of time and effort, just do it from a balanced viewpoint. Go back through your posts and look for the times when you have made a statement that could be just a broad brush stroke, otherwise we are all just murdering, gun crazy rednecks who get a kick out of killing for fun. What other experiences(of church)could I possibly have? Researching anything to whatever extent doesn't mean I have experienced it,and this applies to you also.You haven't seen god,nor had him speak to you,so what experiences can you bring to the table?None more than anyone else.Reading and experiencing are two totally seperate things.I was about 8 or 9 at the time,and am 53 now.The time in between has been spent seeing through my own eyes and experiencing first hand the effects that religious belief can have on the sheeplike masses.It is seen worldwide on a daily basis.I don't need to waste valuable time researching something I have no belief in;I don't have to research the tooth fairy to realise it's fantasy. All shooters have been tarred with the T.Hamilton brush by the media and indeed some major politicians at one time or another,but logic and common sense prevail to a certain extent following political expediency,but logic and common sense don't appear to factor where god is concerned. Despite knowing not all religious people are potential psychos,and a lot of good is done in the name of one god or another, I have to admit I find mass religious fervour very scary.I've always said that the thing that scares me about religious extremists is that they can't be reasoned with,and this is due to relentless indoctrination from a very early age(even you must have to admit this).There is only one thing more frightening than a religious nut,and that's a religious nut with a gun. Nothing you have posted has scared me henry d;as I've said,despite this irrational belief you appear to be quite normal;the only time a tiny bell started ringing was a comment you made regarding the fact you may have been responsible for the deaths of people,but that you 'knew you were forgiven'! The posters outside churches proclaiming 'Jesus is alive' are convincing proof that he is in fact not,and are signs of a desperate plea to keep a particular god alive,because of the simple fact that if no-one believes,god dies,and this has been the fate of all the gods who have passed nto the annals of mythology. Regards your last comment above;I shoot for fun;I enjoy it.If that means in the eyes of some I enjoy killing for fun,then so be it;I can live with that.If you don't enjoy shooting,perhaps you should consider stopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 just to add to the list... where does mother nature come into all this a super force with PMT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 we could take it to another level ? could i ask you henry . who many months are in a year ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I think this subject has been covered now..why don't we all agree to disagree, its been interesting, but at the end of the day there will never be any winners, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 its all a bit deep for me id rather just poor myself a beer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 its all a bit deep for me id rather just poor myself a beer A few of the same and you'll be talking to an imaginary friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 A few of the same and you'll be talking to an imaginary friend. im a lonely boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 A few of the same and you'll be talking to an imaginary friend. Or a teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Pete, I would like to ask again, where did I say I hate you? i ment not just me but all none believers Edited September 23, 2012 by pigeon pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 we could take it to another level ? could i ask you henry . who many months are in a year ? HOW many months in a year? 12 Pete, I would like to ask again, where did I say I hate you? i ment not just me but all none believers I`m sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. It is a ridiculous statement and shows how much you know about Christianity never mind any other religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 HOW many months in a year? 12 I`m sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. It is a ridiculous statement and shows how much you know about Christianity never mind any other religion. i do know what i am talking about ,just a simply question ,how many mouths in a year ,?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Go back and re-read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST3V3 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I dont believe in non of it we're born we die we're worm food but if you want to believe thats your choice it a free country as for the bible adam and eve (the only humans on earth) they had 2 sons kane and able. Kane killed able and was banished from the garden of eden. After a length of time he returned with his wife. where did she come from? who married them? is it a case of women werent important during this time so not mentioned if this is the case he married his sister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Oh dear ! the god squad have stooped to picking up on spelling mistake's now ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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