Help needed

[markyboy]

Right guys,my 4 year old lab (dog) is really trying my patience at pheasant shoots and rough days !

Trouble being he just does not listen or look for a command he just runs about and to be fair hunts and works harder than any lab I've seen and has a nose on him that finds things others don't!

I first introduced him to wildfowling on the marsh ! Flighting geese and is a great dog at this, marks geese and will retrieve geese a good hundred yards away or even more if needed, tide flighting good big strong dog on the tide,

Pigeon shooting introduced also and he will not move until instructed.

I trained him with as my dad trained other dogs, commands, stop whistle, sit, stay, dummy's ! Water retrieves and he would listen to every command I gave him,

Gun shot was last thing introduced and was never a problem.

It's so frustrating to be out at a shoot day on pheasants and spend half the day whistling him back but he just switches off and doesn't listen, I tried to just walk him through woods on a lead and started doing this again and letting off at end of drive. But couple of drives today got him to walk to heel and as soon as he gets a scent he's gone and you don't see him until the end of the drive!

This could well be my training that has made him like this as he is my first dog I've trained myself I've possibly went wrong somewhere??

Or could it be that this is something that is in his blood and there is no stopping this behaviour !

But I'm wondering if there is anyway I can introduce something to make him listen going through woods and work to a range then realise its to far and come back to heel !

He is a big strong athletic dog and could run all day long !!

I just want to be able to enjoy my day and not have a badly behaved dog any longer !! Can anyone help ?

[Actionpigeons]

Had a similar problem with my lab bitch last season pigeon shooting.

 

When I worked it out I’m afraid it was all down to me.

 

When I was shooting and knocked a bird down I would just say, “get out” to the dog. As a lot of the hides I shoot from are permanent hides and the dog cant see out of them, other times I would be shooting over standing crops, so meant most of the retrieve end up a blind retrieve. The problem was I was leaving her to search for the pigeon unaided as she has a lot of gun senses and generally goes in the direction she seen me shoot.

 

She soon learnt to go down wind and work her way up, clever dog you would think, and she is. The problem is when I did want to direct her she thought she knew better and would still work her way down wind then back up no matter what I asked her to do.

 

I put this right this summer with a lot of retraining on blind retrieves at good distances, so the dog relied on me for direction.

 

Maybe this would work for you

Edited October 28, 2012 by Actionpigeons

[kent]

to be fair your expecting the dog to behave differently on pheasants than duck and geese. If you wanted a pheasant dog then you should have trained it that way. Do you insist the dog stays tight at heel on the marsh? i think not. Do you send him on almost everything you shoot on the marsh? i suspect you ust might.

 

Can it be re-trained? probebly but it will have to do the same on the marsh. I am not a big fan of one dog all tasks it can create contradictions in the dogs mind, done it and didn't particulary like it. He sounds a usefull thing to have out on the saltings though. BTW he is doing it for him not you, thats not as bad as it sounds if the parternship works on the marsh- it obviously doesnt on the long tailed chickens !

[al4x]

Beating and game shooting is pretty much the most exciting thing a dog will ever do if you're a dog, simply he has got one over on you and has learned selective hearing its nothing other than pushing you as far as he can and getting away with it. The fact he is spot on pigeon shooting etc and will wait etc says its something you can overcome and more down to him being a headstrong dog. The fast way is a training collar and you could have him beating next week and sort it out with no stress, the slower approach is to go back to basics and work on steadyness round game, and progress it onto dogging in and come down hard on him as soon as he pushes the boundaries. You need to keep him close and working close so you can correct as soon as it happens. Early season is the hardest time they are getting back into the swing of it and you are working covers and not spending so much time in woods. Mine takes a lot of hanging onto while its like this then once the season goes on and we are more onto the woods and thicker cover its a lot easier. In the meantime you will be needing either to keep him on the lead more or very much at heel and do small amounts. Its a nightmare and hellishly stressful having a headstrong dog in the beating line and depends how formal it is as to how much of an issue you have. In the first season mine was out I used to find a good 4 mile walk before hand helped a lot to knock the edge off but that does make the day hard work! I really got mine sorted with dogging in every day and she just kept getting better

[kent]

although an electic collar is a good tool for some things, this is not one of them IMO. its as likely you might spoil the dog with a strange association with a positive action. For aversion work like stock breaking a tough nut, or barking at horses etc. say they are good tools BUT for getting obediance they are of far less use when used as distant punishment tools for sundry all and various transgressions. Far better to put some real hard work in or get another dog to train specifically for the task at hand. A while back such keen dogs used to be advertised as "suitable for wildfowlers"

[al4x]

the odds on stopping it hunting with one are right up there with little and chance, I've seen them sort spaniels in particular very fast and not through harsh treatment its very similar to using a long lead on one and stopping it dead when the dog ignores you. The thing with the collar is be it an audible stimulus or a spray as some do it takes the dogs mind off what its on and you get a chance to try the stop command again. very similar to stock breaking when beating it could be clearing off on all sorts, deer, hares rabbits etc its not always pheasants that are the issue.

I did add it was only one option and the hard work could be put in to try another method but at 4 and a male lab its ticking on a bit for most solutions the behaviour will be well learned by now.

[kent]

I didn't quote you but i very much disagree, never used a smell one though they seem pretty daft outside of kennel barking a hard going dog has been known to ignoor large levels of shock when its blood is fully up you can see them wince, jump maybee but still carry on . The great thing about 'lectric collars is the timing you can operate them on then the range and the speed they cure certain issues. The speed they cure can also be a curse if the trainer hits that button at the wrong moment (even by accident).

For example;

dogs done good, remained steady at peg. time to pick its very first woodcock etc. dog locates bird and picks it. Owner unfortunatly presses the go switch and dog thinks " i aint doing that again" drops bird and returns to owner for protection against this terrible thing. Dogs are far less inteligent than we credit them at times, do not always understand good from bad but are very quick to associate both good and bad stimulous with events at the time.

Mis-using these (again IMO of misuse) as a distant correction tool is very similar to the check cord you are quite correct, use it just once too much and the dog only behaves when its wearing one. This is why you see so many dogs wearing dummy collars on shoot days. Also why we will at sometime see them being banned for use in England as they have been in wales

[Nikk]

You are right there Kent. I have one which i had to use to fix his recall...use it a couple of times and it destroys motivation..its like you fix one problem and create another. I would say in the hands of an exellent trainer they woukd work but most people who have to resort to these arn't, which is why problems have developed in the first place. Every time i put it on i am reminded of my own failure in the early days. On a possitive note I have exellent recall and he will never chase animals but to correct a long distance issue on a retrueve like you say is a big mistake. What you can do in condition the dog to recall on the whistle in a different scenario and it might work.

[markyboy]

Thanks for comments guys! I'd def say he is very headstrong ! I've thought about a collar and this may be an option! If I could get him to work in a range and listen to me while going through a wood he would be a perfect dog !

But with wildfowling being my most keen interest the dog has picked up habits that he needs to get out there and hunt or retrive as he would on the marsh, but doesn't realise it's differant in the woods and that's partly my fault! I've probably expected to much from him! And went about training him the wrong way!

I'm trying to keep him on lead as much as possible! Keep him steady but once he gets a smell he's gone !

It's not a formal shoot there are a few dogs that's are just as bad ! But I've grew up with spaniels and labs and they have all been excellent dogs and the rewarding part out of pheasant shooting for me was to watch dog work but haven't achieved this the shooting doesn't really bother me!

Its so embarrassing walking through the line constantly calling my dogs while the majority hunt to a range ! Something that in the past with other dogs in the beating line previous dogs of my dads have picked up and have worked great on big commercial estates where a bad dog wouldn't warrant you a return back to beating !

Very frustrated with it all ! If he would just listen he would be a great dog ! As he hunts and finds things with the great nose he has on him

[al4x]

This is why you see so many dogs wearing dummy collars on shoot days. Also why we will at sometime see them being banned for use in England as they have been in wales

 

all depends where you shoot I see the very occasional one but in my mind there is no point putting a dummy collar on, better to just not use the real thing then its there if you needed. As for being ham fisted fortunately when I've used one I haven't had the issue, yes you don't shock a dog while picking up that is basic common sense but if you have a dog that is clearing off on scent only on a shoot day and behaving fine in training a collar will sort it and fast. Used right the pre warning will be more than enough but as ever you get those who would prefer to use the dog rather than stick it in a kennel and not take it, the alternative approach is the beat the **** out of the dog which will work lots of trainers will do it with a dog like this but personally the collar is a preference.

 

In this case it may well be the other dogs if as bad have almost encouraged the behaviour, personally I would be getting out with him dogging in daily if possible trying a load of 1 to 1 walked up shooting with close hunting and occasional retrieves and get on him the moment he is heading out of range. It needs to be on your terms not his which is whats going on at the moment

[kent]

Al4x,

accidental triggerings occur no fool would shock a dog picking up intentionally. I obviously feel your dead wrong using the collar as a long range punishment tool of an unruely dog, far better to sort these things the usual way and reserve a collar for the things its realy good for. I cannot say i like a dog running round with a live collar on on shoot day any more than a dummy personally i think its far worse. The trainer will simply use it as a crutch for a bad leg rather than getting the leg fixed, if the op takes this "collar it" advice it is his option and risk.

i do own a collar it don't get used outside of the circumstances i suggest as i have fallen foul of the sorts of things i mention here in the past and i have seen them happen to others. Presently mine is out on loan to a guy with a full on sheep killer. when its between a 'lectric collar or a bullet to sort a dog it is as they say "a no brainer". For aversion they are crack on tools