Bazooka Joe Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 If they are happy for you to remain in possession then what is the problem in using the guns? It doesn't make it more illegal if you use them. You've just answered the question yourself Jonathan. I suppose it reduces the problem of them being found out for allowing people to remain in possession! I really can't see any other reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonno243 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 That's easy to say for shotguns, S1 firearms are a little harder as it's often not possible to get a variation for them - ignoring the time, hassle and cost involved, not all forces will accept 'storage' as the required 'good reason' to grant an FAC slot. The thing is, your missing the point: Why should I pay money to be without my property, which I am legally entitled to, due to police licencing inefficiencies? You are missing the point slightly. If your certification has expired then you are not legally entitled to it. End of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) You are missing the point slightly. If your certification has expired then you are not legally entitled to it. End of... No, I am entitled both to my property and a certificate, provided I still meet the requirements set out in the firearms act. You've normally already paid for your new certificate to be granted as well. Edited November 20, 2012 by bedwards1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 No, I am entitled both to my property and a certificate, provided I still meet the requirements set out in the firearms act. You've normally already paid for your new certificate to be granted as well. I was under the impression you are entitled to a shotgun, unless the police can proove otherwise, and you can request an fac if you can proove you need one? The fee is an admin fee, not a guarantee of a grant?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 You are missing the point slightly. If your certification has expired then you are not legally entitled to it. End of... It's still his property though. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) I was under the impression you are entitled to a shotgun, unless the police can proove otherwise, and you can request an fac if you can proove you need one? The fee is an admin fee, not a guarantee of a grant?. No. You have a right in law to either or both certificates as long as you meet the statutory criteria. The statutory criteria vary slightly between the two but are virtually identical and there is no difference in the public safety terms. The fee is payable 'upon the grant' of a certificate. The police demand that you pay it up front is actually unlawful. J. Edited November 20, 2012 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) No. You have a right in law to either or both certificates as long as you meet the statutory criteria. The statutory criteria vary slightly between the two but are virtually identical and there is no difference in the public safety terms. The fee is payable 'upon the grant' of a certificate. The police demand that you pay it up front is actually unlawful. J. What are the differences please? Edited November 20, 2012 by chrispti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 The police demand that you pay it up front is actually unlawful. J. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Why? I'd lay money on you regretting asking that question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 What is the differences please? Essentially, you have to demonstrate that you have 'good reason' to be granted a firearm certificate. With a shotgun certificate the police have to show that you don't have good reason. Apart from that there is no difference. In either case as long as you meet the statutory criteria then the police must issue the certificate. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Why? Beause a public authority cannot make a demand for money unless it has been given specific authority to do so by Parliament. The Firearms Act grants a right to the police to demand money in the form of a fee for the grant of a firearm or shotgun certificate. Until they actually grant the certificate the power to demand the money has not arisen. J. Edited November 20, 2012 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Wildfowler Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 This happend to me a few years ago, so I wrote to the chief constuble telling him that due to the incompitence and negligence of your fire arms department not issueing my certificates before expiery date I have had to place my guns with a registared fire arms dealer so as I am not brteaking the law, please could you send me an application form so that i can claim compensation from (your are police department) or tell me where to apply for compensationto cover cost of storage until i receave my certificates it workeed for megot mine 3 days later send recorded delivery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Essentially, you have to demonstrate that you have 'good reason' to be granted a firearm certificate. With a shotgun certificate the police have to show that you don't have good reason. Apart from that there is no difference. In either case as long as you meet the statutory criteria then the police must issue the certificate. J. What I said the first time round then.... Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Beause a public authority cannot make a demand for money unless it has been given specific authority to do so by Parliament. The Firearms Act grants a right to the police to demand money in the form of a fee for the grant of a firearm or shotgun certificate. Until they actually grant the certificate the power to demand the money has not arisen. J. Can you quote the act and section of the relevant laws please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Can you quote the act and section of the relevant laws please? He's working off the back of this for the 'grant' wording: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Can you quote the act and section of the relevant laws please? I've not spoken to a lawyer about this, but as the fee is for the grant of a certificate, not for the application for a certificate, it seems to make sense that they shouldn't be able to charge a fee until they actually grant the certificate. Edited November 20, 2012 by bedwards1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I've not spoken to a lawyer about this, but as the fee is for the grant of a certificate, not for the application for a certificate, it seems to make sense that they shouldn't be able to charge a fee until they actually grant the certificate. To argue about something not worth arguing about, they could rebut that they are holding your money in trust until the point of grant. This is reinforced by the fact that the money is returned if unsuccessful. I.e. they are holding your money in their account with your permission for convenience until the actual grant, at which point it ceases to be your property and becomes theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I've not spoken to a lawyer about this, but as the fee is for the grant of a certificate, not for the application for a certificate, it seems to make sense that they shouldn't be able to charge a fee until they actually grant the certificate. Perhaps it just saves time having to wait for a cheque to clear? Or do they not cash it until the grant is authorised ? Or, I guess you would get a refund if a renewal was not granted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 He's working off the back of this for the 'grant' wording: http://www.legislati...8/27/section/32 Correct. It says; "32 Fee for certificate and exemption from paying it in certain cases. [(1)Subject to this Act, there shall be payable— (a)on the grant of a firearm certificate a fee of..." There is no power to charge anything until the certificate os actually granted. The Home Office actually do it the correct way when they issue club approvals. You send in all the paperwork, they process the application and send you a bill when the aproval is granted. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Yes of course, ask any serving police officer. Why bother? A serving officer is already offering good information and not being believed. Cake and eat it springs to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 To argue about something not worth arguing about, they could rebut that they are holding your money in trust until the point of grant. This is reinforced by the fact that the money is returned if unsuccessful. I.e. they are holding your money in their account with your permission for convenience until the actual grant, at which point it ceases to be your property and becomes theirs. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Correct. It says; "32 Fee for certificate and exemption from paying it in certain cases. [(1)Subject to this Act, there shall be payable— (a)on the grant of a firearm certificate a fee of..." There is no power to charge anything until the certificate os actually granted. The Home Office actually do it the correct way when they issue club approvals. You send in all the paperwork, they process the application and send you a bill when the aproval is granted. J. Maybe you could ask your force to send you an invoice next time your up for renewal. They could hold your certificate after its been granted and when they receive the cheque and decide to bank it then they could post it out to you.....second class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 To argue about something not worth arguing about, they could rebut that they are holding your money in trust until the point of grant. Hahahaha - no they couldn't. Well, yes, they could, I suppose. The point is that they have no authority to demand it in the first place. I agree that, to some extent, it's not worth arguing about. One the other hand though it's a hugely and significantly important point. A public authority has decided to take it upon its self to make demands for money of the public with absolutely no authority to do so. This is one of the most serious abuses of authority going. Public officials have been sent to prison for very long periods for improperly using their authority to take property from people. This is reinforced by the fact that the money is returned if unsuccessful. I.e. they are holding your money in their account with your permission for convenience until the actual grant, at which point it ceases to be your property and becomes theirs. It matters not. They have no authority to demand it (or even to receive it if you were to offer it), the fact that you get it back is not the point. They are subsidising their budget with our money without authority. You are deprived the use of it due to that, including any interest due. It's a relatively small amount so no one will be bothered to argue it. What if it was £100, though? What about £150 or £1,500? It is an utter liberty and it never hapens in any other public authority - or when it does it gets noticed and stopped. The only reason that the police get away with it is because it's related to firearms and they can do anything regarding firearms. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Maybe you could ask your force to send you an invoice next time your up for renewal. They could hold your certificate after its been granted and when they receive the cheque and decide to bank it then they could post it out to you.....second class. Well, yes. That's pretty much how it's supposed to work, the way that Parliament has stipulated it should happen. That's how the home office do it. Although I think they send out the bill with the approval certificate. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Hahahaha - no they couldn't. Well, yes, they could, I suppose. The point is that they have no authority to demand it in the first place. I agree that, to some extent, it's not worth arguing about. One the other hand though it's a hugely and significantly important point. A public authority has decided to take it upon its self to make demands for money of the public with absolutely no authority to do so. This is one of the most serious abuses of authority going. Public officials have been sent to prison for very long periods for improperly using their authority to take property from people. It matters not. They have no authority to demand it (or even to receive it if you were to offer it), the fact that you get it back is not the point. They are subsidising their budget with our money without authority. You are deprived the use of it due to that, including any interest due. It's a relatively small amount so no one will be bothered to argue it. What if it was £100, though? What about £150 or £1,500? It is an utter liberty and it never hapens in any other public authority - or when it does it gets noticed and stopped. The only reason that the police get away with it is because it's related to firearms and they can do anything regarding firearms. J. I am sure you could make a song and dance and exchange the money for certificate at point of completion. I bet it would take a lot of extra time though. When I paid my cheque I did so in the knowledge that they would hold the money on my behalf until the point of grant, at which point it became theirs. You have no evidence that money held prior to grant of certificates is used to subsidise budgets. If you can come back to me we with proof that the balance of any relevant accounts fell below the amount held for grant/renewal, I might think again. The interest that would be receivable on a current account over the average period for the grant of a certificate would be 1/25 pence. This is nothing to do with abuse, it is achieving a more efficient system that reduces the time taken and number of actions required to get from start to finish in the process. p.s. it is not particularly respectful to try and discredit me by laughing and then concede that in fact I am entirely correct about the legal status of the monies involved. Edited November 20, 2012 by guest1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts