al4x Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 You just have no idea basically do you lumpy on supply. Holland it's all illegal imports or illegally grown but once in the coffee shop it's "legal" and no one seems to look at source. It's certainly not legal to grow or import over there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 You just have no idea basically do you lumpy on supply. Holland it's all illegal imports or illegally grown but once in the coffee shop it's "legal" and no one seems to look at source. It's certainly not legal to grow or import over there Considering the Dutch government used the loss of 1 million tourist's a year as the main reason for not going ahead with there drug reform i'm guessing they know it's going on legally or otherwise so i'll stick to my comment (which i did state was only an assumption) that we would probably copy one of the countries who already condone the use/sale of cannabis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 As far as I can see the supply of cannabis in Holland is strictly illegal as it involves growing and traficking. It's only when the product gets in to the coffee shop that it becomes quasi-legal and gets taxed. In fact, somewhere between 60-80% of the cannabis grown in Holland goes on to the black market! The complaint from the coffee shops is that they can't sell it at a price to match the street as they have to add tax. Whether you are in favour of decriminalising or not, this has to be a half-***** system if ever there was. If we do produce it legally here what would likely happen. Well we are already growing fields of opium poppies in the UK so it isn't a stretch to have fields of marijuana. The pharmaceutical industry would have to take control and it would probably be sold as a licensed medicine controlled under the medicines directive. Following Holland's proposals they would limit the level of THC (cannabis active and an open door for high strength street product at less than the price of a taxed low strength product). As it would be controlled by the MHRA (medicines and health care products regulatory authority) it would likely be classed as prescription only and need to be sold by a pharmacist. Consequently, everyone buying the drug will have a paper trail of being on a prescription medication with psychotropic properties (read gun licences, insurance declarations etc.) - complicated so far - it's only going to get worse and I can't see anyone having any apatite to make this happen. On top of that you are going to need a whole new lot of legislation. There are several international treaties (we signed up) that prevent the sale of narcotics. Sure the government are going to make some tax money, the pharmaceutical companies may also do well, but I'll be buying shares in Eurotunnel as we'll get a lot more junkies heading our way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thank you. So, who would manufacture, market and sell all these legal highs....and where would they be available? This is why the idea is getting some traction in high places. Drugs manufacturers would have to buy a licence from the government to import or manufacture the drugs, they would be responsible for quality issues. Then you would have private companies responsible for distribution and all the licencing they would have to pay to the government. Because only a total buffoon would argue for a free for all, it is probable that restrictions would apply, rather like with prescription drugs today. Also, the legal drugs are very likely to be sold for more than black market drugs. In practice the legal market sector will be hardly anything compared to the illegal sector. Who would want a medical record as a cannabis or other drug user when insurance companies and employers ask? So, you would end up with a two-tier system with legal drugs being prescribed and generating some money for HMIR and of course the private companies involved. Then you would have a black market as you currently have with tobacco and alcohol as well as prescription drugs like tamazipan. So, all the hype bout saving money on police, customs officers and court appearances is baloney, because, as now, the government will want to protect their taxes. We would still have drug dealers and them making profits. We would still have kids buying a fiver bag of ketamine on the streets. We would still have hospital admissions due to drug misuse. The only difference is that some private companies would make a lot of money out of their sector of the legal drugs and HM government would get a small amount of benefit in taxes from the legal drugs which are likely to be minute compared to the black market. So, why is this being considered? People like Richard Branson are gagging to get their greedy hands on this business and no doubt lubricating the pockets of those who can make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Can anybody source some information about current black market alcohol and tobbaco? ive heard of neither in any shape or form and would love to read more. Eitherway using that as an argument fails as the black market, if it even exists, is such a small percentage and even with alcohol and tobacco prices they still make billions in tax. Seems a good argument FOR legalisation, not against it! thanks, ill use that in future I don't care what Richard Bransons intentions are. I would rather he making billions than criminal gangs. Edited December 17, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Can anybody source some information about current black market alcohol and tobbaco? ive heard of neither in any shape or form and would love to read more. Eitherway using that as an argument fails as the black market, if it even exists, is such a small percentage and even with alcohol and tobacco prices they still make billions in tax. Seems a good argument FOR legalisation, not against it! thanks, ill use that in future I don't care what Richard Bransons intentions are. I would rather he making billions than criminal gangs. You haven't heard of booze cruises and there and back tobacco flights? Sounds like your education is sadly lacking and here you are trying to argue a case. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/03/huge-rise-alcohol-seizures http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/03/huge-rise-alcohol-seizures http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20585696 This costs the country £££ billions in lost revenue, and costs £££ millions on policing and controls. As for it not being relevant; it totally undermines your case that policing of illegal drugs will cease and save the country £££ millions. As for how big the black market sector would be depends on the price, quality and controls involved in legal drug. If they are one penny per ounce more than black market drugs then the black market will prosper. If the controls are such that one person cannot get legal drugs then they will find a way around it. That is the side of this scheme that nobody wants to mention. I'm sure that some people would have difficulty separating Richard Branson from organised crime. He's the guy who gratefully accepts gifts from the taxpayer like Northern Rock then goes into a tantrum, running to uncle David when somebody undermines his railway project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Can anybody source some information about current black market alcohol and tobbaco? ive heard of neither in any shape or form I've followed this thread for a while now Gazz, listened to your ramblings.. ...your above quote above sums it up, Just goes to show how out of touch you are, you really need to re-read UKPoachers, & Evo's posts again...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) 158 seizures of counterfeit alcohol Compare that to the legal market? Ha, Sure does sound like an epidemic... Both of these incidents sound woefully poor in comparison to the illegal drug industry even with the prices of alcohol and tobacco, Set me up for a pretty good argument supporting legalisation tho so thanks. Edited December 17, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 so is this basically research for a school debate for you Gazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I've followed this thread for a while now Gazz, listened to your ramblings.. ...your above quote above sums it up, Just goes to show how out of touch you are, you really need to re-read UKPoachers, & Evo's posts again...! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12456360 Alcohol fraud costs the UK around £1bn a year in lost revenue, according to government estimates. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11170814 alcohol contributing £14.6bn in total to UK tax revenues. Compare that to illegal drug market which is costing us 10's of billions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19942378 (class A drug use is £15bn alone!) figures don't quite add up, But it sure does help my argument somewhat so ill be sure to read into it more. The more references to my age and education really is a show of desperation.... so is this basically research for a school debate for you Gazz? The comprehensiveness of your argument is overwhelming. Edited December 17, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 In all fairness as much as i agree with a lot of what gazz say's I live a stone's throw away from dover and tobacco and alcohol can be bought just about everywhere on the black market, however this is just another example of a system that's failing and could also do with a lot more funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I've heard of 'booze/Tobacco cruises' , But how is that relevant to this? its legal? Edited December 17, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 I've heard of 'booze/Tobacco cruises' , But how is that relevant to this? its legal? Only if its for personal consumption and not being sold on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) is it ? didn,t know that as far as i knew you could only bring a certain amount back "" I've heard of 'booze cruises' , But how is that relevant to this? its legal? "" Edited December 17, 2012 by evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) is it ? didn,t know that as far as i knew tou could only bring a certain amount back I think there is a limit to what you can bring back however if you was to buy your limit of each different item you would need a lorry, add to this the fact you can do 3/4 crossing's a day. But it must be for personal use. Edited December 17, 2012 by lumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 i somehow dont think that would happen ,customs and excise would suss that one out and lets be honest and not talk daft here,the minute they think you are bringing it in for resale then it is taken off you,and a lorry load of alcohol would suggest just that,it is then up to you to prove otherwise, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Last time we did it we brought this back so I guess whatever the limit its not that restrictive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Either-way, the above figures show the illegal market for alcohol (even with the prices being what they are) is tiny in comparison to the legal market. Making for a very good argument that the same would be for current illegal drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 thats not a lorry load tho is it,its not even filled the back of a pickup so personnel use yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) thats not a lorry load tho is it,its not even filled the back of a pickup so personnel use yes But clearly he was'nt over the limit or he'd have been pulled, The truck is mostly beer so by the time you add more wine, spirit's fag's and tobacco that pickup would have been massively overloaded ! And i'm guessing it was only one trip ? Edited December 17, 2012 by lumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 I've heard of 'booze/Tobacco cruises' , But how is that relevant to this? its legal? Because, for the umpteenth time, if legal drugs are not sold as cheaply or are as easily available as black market drugs are then the illegal import and supply of drugs will continue. Given that one of your main planks for arguing for legalising drugs is that we can save £££ millions on policing and take the profits away from drug dealers, this proves what a total nonsense your argument is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 I reckon its about time for me to get the poly tunnel going if Gazz reckons he can make it legal to grow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Can anybody source some information about current black market alcohol and tobbaco? ive heard of neither in any shape or form I've heard of 'booze/Tobacco cruises' , But how is that relevant to this? its legal? Yer....right....google is your friend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Because, for the umpteenth time, if legal drugs are not sold as cheaply or are as easily available as black market drugs are then the illegal import and supply of drugs will continue. Given that one of your main planks for arguing for legalising drugs is that we can save £££ millions on policing and take the profits away from drug dealers, this proves what a total nonsense your argument is. So are you saying the amount of duty free alcohol and tobacco products sold on the black market is greater than the amount sold legally through tesco's,asda, morrisons, sainsbury's etc ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 So are you saying the amount of duty free alcohol and tobacco products sold on the black market is greater than the amount sold legally through tesco's,asda, morrisons, sainsbury's etc ? so are we now saying drugs will have their own aisle in Asda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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