Organ donation and the B.M.A idea

[FalconFN]

Still want to trust them to get it right?

 

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/thousands-of-summary-care-records-created-without-consent-in-nhs-it-blunder/20001373.article#.UdXcdfm1FVU

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/10/nhs-data-blunder-reveals-pregnant-men-statistics_n_1414466.html

 

http://www.itpro.co.uk/636199/nhs-in-more-data-security-blunders

 

The NHS has a long history of computer blunders,if i listed blunders and loss of data from only 2008 then i would fill the page,the ones above are to show a point,and no daily mail in sight.

Fair enough!. I should be working so I won't look at all of them, but that doesn't answer the main point - yes mistakes are made, but what do you do for the 3 people a week dying through lack of organs?

 

Ok, I did have a look but that is widening the debate to all NHS data problems and we should be talking about whether opt-in or opt-out would be of overall good to the country and whether opt-in would cause more problems than the people it will save. I think one way, you think another and we're probably both wrong, que sera.

Edited July 4, 2013 by FalconFN

[FalconFN]

FalconFN - I am only too well aware of what can go wrong in the NHS. I had first hand experience in 2003, when I am told I was an hour from death, due to their incompetence.The NHS failed me badly, but also saved me. I did consider suing them, but didn't feel well enough at the time.

 

Later, when I recovered, I wanted to put it behind me. I saw the bigger picture, but had someone removed organs from one of my sons for example I would have spent the rest of my life seeing justice done.

I would probably do the same - no matter whether we had an opt-in or opt-out system.

[welsh1]

Fair enough!. I should be working so I won't look at all of them, but that doesn't answer the main point - yes mistakes are made, but what do you do for the 3 people a week dying through lack of organs?

Make it cool to donate,run advertising,educate kids.,

 

Or just thought of this,if your organs are used the powers that be will pay say £3000 toward the cost of your funeral,the sum of money would be a drop in the ocean.The Welsh assembly are about to blow £8000000 in advertising and they have already made it compulsory!.,talk about waste

[FalconFN]

Make it cool to donate,run advertising,educate kids.,

 

Or just thought of this,if your organs are used the powers that be will pay say £3000 toward the cost of your funeral,the sum of money would be a drop in the ocean.The Welsh assembly are about to blow £8000000 in advertising and they have already made it compulsory!.,talk about waste

Or I could sell them one of my spare kidneys, I could do with a new gun.

[bruno22rf]

Just over 8 years ago, in Portsmouth, a 21 year old girl died of a brain haemorrhage. She was carrying a donor card and her parents knew of her wishes. By a one in a million chance her tissue type was practically identical to mine and, after a 14 hour operation I received her Kidney and Pancreas. I think of her most days and light a candle at our church for her every year on the day that she died. I will not bore you with the full details of my medical history or the trauma of over a year in recovery because those who are not willing to donate will never change their minds, but might I suggest that unless YOU have been in a situation where death is the only alternative to transplantation, you are a little blinkered.

[FalconFN]

I cannot imagine what you and your family went through, or the family of the the young woman, but one day when my time is up I hope there is a part of me still in good enough nick to help someone else. The rest of me will be recycled like everything else, but my family could have the knowledge that my death had some positive effect on the world.

 

Good luck and regards to you and your family, (I'm loving the shotgun by the way, but still missing way too much)

 

All the best.

Edited July 4, 2013 by FalconFN

[JonathanL]

 

Which planet are you accessing this forum from who says they will get over it did you not know that mothers & fathers happen too be sensitive & some very so !

Are you by any chance a member of the Nazi party well I do wonder , your comments are heartless !. ps did you not read about the cases where body parts were taken from dead children with out their parents consent ? , try telling that to their mothers ?

 

So, as seems to be par fo the course for so many people on here; if you don't agree with someone and you can't put up a rational counter argument then the other guy must be a Nazi, or whatever other hate filled, repellant bile you can dream up. Always easier to attack the messenger rather then the message, isn't it!

 

It is quite honestly borderline unbelievable that you can ask me whether I had heard about something that I had actually made reference to in the post you responded to!

 

J.

[welsh1]

Just over 8 years ago, in Portsmouth, a 21 year old girl died of a brain haemorrhage. She was carrying a donor card and her parents knew of her wishes. By a one in a million chance her tissue type was practically identical to mine and, after a 14 hour operation I received her Kidney and Pancreas. I think of her most days and light a candle at our church for her every year on the day that she died. I will not bore you with the full details of my medical history or the trauma of over a year in recovery because those who are not willing to donate will never change their minds, but might I suggest that unless YOU have been in a situation where death is the only alternative to transplantation, you are a little blinkered.

Truly humbling post mate and i am glad good came out of bad,but the thing is she volunteered her organs and her family accepted her wishes.

[JonathanL]

 

You clearly seem not to have a heart either now that is sad , but if you experienced such a situation I wonder how you would feel ? .

The system as it stands in England & Scotland is the correct way & in my opinion should not be changed , incidentally did the citizens in Wales get a say in this ? I dout it .

 

Did you even read the content of the post you responded to? You either didn't or you just didn't understand it.

 

The key issue here is that according to you the current system is preferable because it can't result in the mistake of a non consenting persons organs being taken by mistake or intention. You have not explained how the new opt-out system carries a greater risk of that happening.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

 

You clearly have nothing to do with the legal profession.

 

Ok, so someones organs get taken contrary to their wishes.

 

How much compensation will the next of kin be in for?

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Got to be honest, I don't care if it is one in a million. If it happened to my family, I would sue the pants off the hospital and do my level best to see the culprits drummed out of the NHS.

 

Try explaining to a distraught relative that they needed to keep a sense of perspective and see the bigger picture. Good luck.

 

Well, neither you, Welsh1 nor any other objectors have presented a cogent argument as to why an opt-out system presents any greater risk of taking organs from someone who does not consent than the current one does.

 

J.

[aris]

Just over 8 years ago, in Portsmouth, a 21 year old girl died of a brain haemorrhage. She was carrying a donor card and her parents knew of her wishes. By a one in a million chance her tissue type was practically identical to mine and, after a 14 hour operation I received her Kidney and Pancreas. I think of her most days and light a candle at our church for her every year on the day that she died. I will not bore you with the full details of my medical history or the trauma of over a year in recovery because those who are not willing to donate will never change their minds, but might I suggest that unless YOU have been in a situation where death is the only alternative to transplantation, you are a little blinkered.

If that was the girls and her families explicit wish - there is no problem is there. Would you want organs which were harvested from someone against their or their families wishes? In China they harvest organs from executed prisoners. If an organ became avaible from such a source would you take it?

 

I know it is an impossible question to answer if you are in that position, but there are many ethical issues with organ donation.

[welsh1]

 

Well, neither you, Welsh1 nor any other objectors have presented a cogent argument as to why an opt-out system presents any greater risk of taking organs from someone who does not consent than the current one does.

 

J.

Evening j

[Gordon R]

Jonathan - I notice that you have not presented a cogent assessment of how much compensation would be. No surprise there.

 

I asked for a yes or no answer as to whether you are still at school. I might have missed the answer.

[JonathanL]

If that was the girls and her families explicit wish - there is no problem is there. Would you want organs which were harvested from someone against their or their families wishes? In China they harvest organs from executed prisoners. If an organ became avaible from such a source would you take it?

 

I know it is an impossible question to answer if you are in that position, but there are many ethical issues with organ donation.

 

Against the wishes of their family, yes, I would want them as long as the donor consented. The wishes of the family shouldn't be relevant if the donor is over 18.

 

As to the executred prisoner scenarios - I don't know but I have a pretty good idea which way my decision would go if it were a choice between that and being dead.

 

J.

[welsh1]

 

Well, neither you, Welsh1 nor any other objectors have presented a cogent argument as to why an opt-out system presents any greater risk of taking organs from someone who does not consent than the current one does.

 

J.

Why would i present an argument to the above? in all the pages on here i have never argued that point,go check if you want,my argument was that it should be voluntary.

 

If i wanted to argue about the risks then i would,true i have shown the system is not reliable with information stored on it,but that was to show a point to another post.

 

I would presume there would be no risk of removing anyone's organs as i would hope that they are dead(i know i know,i get what you were trying to say)

 

But please don't drag me into a side argument,i'm up early tomorrow it's my Wife's birthday.

[JonathanL]

Jonathan - I notice that you have not presented a cogent assessment of how much compensation would be. No surprise there.

 

I asked for a yes or no answer as to whether you are still at school. I might have missed the answer.

 

I didn't raise the subject of compensation, you did. Tell you what, you give me your assesment of how much compensation a family would get if their relatives organs were taken in the absence of their consent, along with a sensibly reasoned argument as to how you arrived at the figure and I'll respond with mine. No games or trying to evade the subject from either of us.

 

Over to you.

 

J.

[Gordon R]

 

I asked for a yes or no answer as to whether you are still at school. I might have missed the answer.

 

Put up or shut up.

[welsh1]

 

I didn't raise the subject of compensation, you did. Tell you what, you give me your assesment of how much compensation a family would get if their relatives organs were taken in the absence of their consent, along with a sensibly reasoned argument as to how you arrived at the figure and I'll respond with mine. No games or trying to evade the subject from either of us.

 

Over to you.

 

J.

As close as i could find, this is the case's of the children having their body parts removed and stored,quite interesting read, and one claimant was awarded £2750 general damages.

 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KwtpCC7U-U8C&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=nhs++wrongful+removal+of+organs&source=bl&ots=YDDJ1N7FeK&sig=PKwCyE9lrYxbsoxLj2D2u3LLFa0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gfbVUdywJs3bPYqkgOAD&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=nhs%20%20wrongful%20removal%20of%20organs&f=false

Edited July 4, 2013 by welsh1

[FalconFN]

If that was the girls and her families explicit wish - there is no problem is there. Would you want organs which were harvested from someone against their or their families wishes? In China they harvest organs from executed prisoners. If an organ became avaible from such a source would you take it?

 

I know it is an impossible question to answer if you are in that position, but there are many ethical issues with organ donation.

I think that's the point at which many have a problem - the families wishes, that is. Even though an adult has made an informed and possibly passionate decision about what happens to their body after death, their family can overrule their choice. That is the current arrangement and it does seem to fly against all reason. Medical staff are required to get family members to make an incredibly difficult choice at one of the most stressful and emotional moments of their lives whereas the opt-out sysyem, although not perfect, will take the deceased's wishes as confirmation and won't therefore put the families in that impossible position.

 

Personally I wouldn't want an organ taken without the persons permission, and it would be illegal under both systems, but their decision is what counts and not the families.

[Gordon R]

Others have demanded more, but you would need a recent case for a better figure. I think attitudes may have hardened since the scandal first broke.

 

That said, it would depend on individual circumstances and the effect on the relatives. Trying to pass it off as trivial is despicable, even for a potential schoolboy.

[welsh1]

A bit easier reading,seems you would sue for psychiatric injury.as i would presume it would amount to the same thing.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1457797/Families-win-organ-retention-case.html

[FalconFN]

As close as i could find, this is the case's of the children having their body parts removed and stored,quite interesting read, and one claimant was awarded £2750 general damages.

 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KwtpCC7U-U8C&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=nhs++wrongful+removal+of+organs&source=bl&ots=YDDJ1N7FeK&sig=PKwCyE9lrYxbsoxLj2D2u3LLFa0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gfbVUdywJs3bPYqkgOAD&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=nhs%20%20wrongful%20removal%20of%20organs&f=false

At a guess I would say that is the cost of 1 or 2 months of dialysis?

 

By the way, happy birthday Mrs Welsh1

[ack-ack]

I don't think you understood my previous post, you can't inherit peoples habits through organ transplants, it is psychological (all in the mind) and not physical.

Brain transplant?

[welsh1]

At a guess I would say that is the cost of 1 or 2 months of dialysis?

 

By the way, happy birthday Mrs Welsh1

I think the costs awarded could go way beyond that if you can prove that by the organs being removed you suffer psychiatric injury,it would be how much injury as to the monies paid.

 

Will pass your birthday wishes on