Billy. Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 We're not all wideboys. Given the right consultant, with clients he or she cares about, you can have a job introduced to you that you only ever dreamed of. Just make sure your cv is correctly formatted and gives an indication as to where you want to go in life. Be honest with a recruitment consultant. They're there to help you and negotiate for you. If you tell them you want 40k and that's what you'll accept at, don't take the pee on an offer and say "I actually want 45k". We'll do everything we can to help you, but only if you're honest with us. Likewise, whilst we might be out there to get you a decent wage, be realistic in your salary expectations. Fair enough, if you're an IT Manager who's been stuck at £28k for three years, then you're underpaid and we can justify a 25% leap, but don't try and ask us to bump your £45k salary to £70k like we can just wave a magic wand. If you want to avoid the wideboys, just listen to the first 5 minutes of the call. If it's pure datamining, "where are you interviewing?" "Who's your boss?" "Who can recommend you" then just don't answer their questions. It's a give and take industry - a proper consultant should hit the nail on the head with your cv and a job they have. You should be so well informed and enthused about the opportunity that you literally lose sleep over it. The consultant will hand hold you through the process and keep you up to date. In return we want a bit of help, be it a LinkedIn reccomendation, a reference or some coworkers who you think would be good for other jobs. It's like buying a friend a drink in return for the pint they got you. I do IT, so if you're not happy with the service you're getting, drop your CV to me. I can't promise I have something, but the best thing I can do is give you advice, or point you to vacancies I know of, but I'm not managing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 agencies are the sperm of the devil, i hates them. they just tell lies mate, probably just getting their books full of names. I suppose that's one opinion.... What you don't realise is that they are not doing it for free and are bonus incentivised. I.e they will only work on things and with people who will make them money ( simple economics really). A good agency is an essential tool to any company large or small because the stringent testing and regulations regarding recruitment are such to protect all parties, they are a magnifying glass for the government to assess production and economic growth. So your opinion is a good one, but not exact well informed. But don't get me wrong there are some real cowboys out there! T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) plus the payroll companies associated with them that charge the worker another £20ish just to process the wages. If you're not happy - do your tax return yourself. You don't HAVE to use a payroll company they provide and it's actually against the law to not give someone the option to choose from more than one. My bet is that an accountant will cost you a fair bit more than an umbrella company would to process your timesheets etc. There is a point where going Ltd is financially better than an Umbrella company, but I think it's around the £250+ a day mark. For anyone who really thinks agencies and those who use them are mugs, take this into consideration; There are Rec2Rec agencies out there - the most difficult type of recruitment. These are agencies who supply recruitment agencies with recruitment consultants. Thunderbird is well acquainted with this IIRC. It goes to prove that even a recruitment agency will pay £4-8k for an agency to get them someone, but £ for £ a Rec2Rec placed consultant will pay for themselves within their first month. Edited March 11, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I work for agencies and what gets my goat is the fact that they get out of holiday pay by saying " it's in the rate" !! And yes I understand you saying its cheaper to go umbrella company to do your pay role. But why should we have to pay for it? When you work for a company you don't pay for your wages to be processed! They have payroll to do it. The amount of companies I work for who use so many agencies staff out there a day is unreal and I just sit there thinking why don't they just employ a few more staff cut down on the agencies charges happy days??? But they don't!! Even though they have people asking for full time jobs?? I think the fair way for workers to run and work together is to make it law that agencies have to employ you full time with holiday pay ect So they can't just fill there books because if they have not got any thing it doesn't effect them.. Obviously it's different if the agency is recruiting for full time possessions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Recruiters don't look for a job for you when they get your CV. They don't work for you - they work for the company they are recruiting for. THEY pay the commission. So they start with a role to fill, and then look for suitable candidates. Not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I think every one understands this and it's fair enough. I think it's the way they work that upsets a few people Recruiters don't look for a job for you when they get your CV. They don't work for you - they work for the company they are recruiting for. THEY pay the commission. So they start with a role to fill, and then look for suitable candidates. Not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I think every one understands this and it's fair enough. I think it's the way they work that upsets a few people i'm not sure everyone does fully understand this. Some people think that you send them a CV and they work tirelessly to find you a job. Not true. Recruiters are salesmen, and thus coin operated. They take the path of least resistance to the coin. That means the CV's with the most likely chance of getting a sale will go to the most lucrative roles. You are correct in saying that they could be a bit more professional, and have a code of practice. Unfortunately, like estate agents, there is no legal body which regulates them. And really, they are in the same league. Believe me it is not only candidates who find recruiters a bit too much - the company I work for has been making a big effort to move away from using them too. We've hired a fair few great people via Linked-In. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Well they should Dose not matter weather directly to the company or via agencies only the best cv approach will get you to the interview and only the best interview /person for the job will get the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I worked for quite a few agencies in the part as a temp and enjoyed it and was always in work They don't work for you they work for the company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Recruitment gencies and their agents are a bit like estate agents - wideboys looking for the next sale. They have no other concern. Find out who the employer is and go direct. your talking out your harris fella and clearly have no idea how it works and why companies use an agent........... I get shed loads of CV's and most have nothing to do with our business, my thought is if you cant be 4rsed to find out what we do i cant be 4rsed to reply. You also have the numpty e mail address and numpty cv I got one cv from a bloke via e mail and it was something like hardmandave@hotmail.com... or similar and on his Cv was lots of door work for pubs and clubs but i would like to get into the oil industry was his first line! I dont think so......... Not saying this is the case here but you have to give people a reason to want to call you and often its a poorly worded cv or lack of experiance or training in the area on offer and someone else has whats required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Recruiters don't look for a job for you when they get your CV. They don't work for you - they work for the company they are recruiting for. THEY pay the commission. So they start with a role to fill, and then look for suitable candidates. Not the other way around. You are so wrong it hurts. Given the right CVs, you can be a consultant with no vacancies and still place people. If you know your market and know your candidate and the candidate gives you their next (realistic) job move, a consultant can have an interview booked from a five minute phone call. Some people are good at matching CVs to vacancies, others have the gift of the gab and can ring a manager and make a candidate so appealing the manager has to see the person. Edited March 12, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I take it you work for a agency? What area do you work in? You are so wrong it hurts. Given the right CVs, you can be a consultant with no vacancies and still place people. If you know your market and know your candidate and the candidate gives you their next (realistic) job move, a consultant can have an interview booked from a five minute phone call. Some people are good at matching CVs to vacancies, others have the gift of the gab and can ring a manager and make a candidate so appealing the manager has to see the person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Listen to Billy chaps. He's actually doing the job and his opinion is worth listening to more than many in this thread. Most successful recruiters would actually rather start with a decent candidate than a decent job vacancy. If you think about it, it does make sense that way round. I once spent four years as head of HR, Recruitment & Training for a large recruitment agency and believe me I've seen it all. As Billy says, a good consultant can make your career. Also, rolled-up holiday pay (as in "it's in the rate" is in some cases -not all - no longer lawful, if you want advice on it feel free to PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petethegeek Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I take it you work for a agency? What area do you work in? I do IT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Thanks missed that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I take it you work for a agency? What area do you work in? Analysts, Developers and Network Engineers. These are my main areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Also, rolled-up holiday pay (as in "it's in the rate" is in some cases -not all - no longer lawful, if you want advice on it feel free to PM me. Yes I know they changed the law last year that you have to get what the full time employees get. But problem is you say something.. Then overnight they have no work.... So your screwed any way The agencies are def in Controll I just keep my mouth shut take the work and get on with it and it keeps me in work Thx though for your offer very kind of you Jamie Prob the area you work in.. Shame not all agency's have your attitude. Analysts, Developers and Network Engineers. These are my main areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yes I know they changed the law last year that you have to get what the full time employees get. That's the Agency Workers Directive you're talking about, slightly different from rolled-up holiday pay which is more Working Time Regs. The trouble is there are sneaky schemes to get around paying parity (with full timers) pay, one is known as the Swedish Derogation (or a "Reg 10") Contract, another one was the "French Extension", all designed to basically rip the butt out of the regulations. If you are on a Contract FOR Services then basically after 12 weeks in the same assignment you should be getting parity pay, and that also applies to parity of holiday entitlement too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 You are so wrong it hurts. Given the right CVs, you can be a consultant with no vacancies and still place people. If you know your market and know your candidate and the candidate gives you their next (realistic) job move, a consultant can have an interview booked from a five minute phone call. Some people are good at matching CVs to vacancies, others have the gift of the gab and can ring a manager and make a candidate so appealing the manager has to see the person. I would submit that recruiters like this are in the minority (at least in my experience). Also - if a recruiter can divine headcount from a prospective employer with the gift of the gab, and a phone call, he may well do better in an industry outside of recruiting where the commissions are higher Like I said, the company I work for are moving away from recruiters - there are other options now. And we're recruiting in the same sector as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I would submit that recruiters like this are in the minority (at least in my experience). Also - if a recruiter can divine headcount from a prospective employer with the gift of the gab, and a phone call, he may well do better in an industry outside of recruiting where the commissions are higher Like I said, the company I work for are moving away from recruiters - there are other options now. And we're recruiting in the same sector as you. RPO (Recruitment Process Outsourcing) is big at the moment, which is a move away from the traditional ad-hoc model but still not that different when you get down to it. The trouble is when the balloon goes up a senior manager will always pick up the phone to a recruiter. Likewise, if a really good CV gets specced into them, then they'll go outside and master vendor or RPO agreement every time. All sales is, is solving a problem for someone, helping them to buy the thing you're selling. If what you're selling solves their problem then bingo. In terms of higher commissions, the IT sector is pretty much the highest potential earning recruitment sector in the UK. I know plenty of people on the following kind of deal: Basic salary about £30,000 £5000 car allowance Approximately 20% commission on annual billings of say £250,000 £85,000 a year. And that's not uncommon for a Bristol agency. I know someone who left the army two years ago who is earning more than that, and she is no whizz-kid or wide..um...girl. It has got to be the industry where someone with literally no qualifications can earn the most money. I know that used to apply to City Traders and Barristers Clerks too, but not sure if it still does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I have no beef with what recruiters earn - it's an open market after all. If they are solving a problem for someone who is willing to pay, more power to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 RPOs still rely on agencies like us. I'm in a 2nd tier agreement with a mobile phone company and I am probably one of five other recruitment agencies they use - so not even the onsite agency can do the recruitment by themselves ...All this talk. I really should get back to work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 RPOs still rely on agencies like us. I'm in a 2nd tier agreement with a mobile phone company and I am probably one of five other recruitment agencies they use - so not even the onsite agency can do the recruitment by themselves Very true. Back to work you lazy sod! Nearly time for your three-hour-three-bottle lunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 £85,000 a year. And that's not uncommon for a Bristol agency. I know someone who left the army two years ago who is earning more than that, and she is no whizz-kid or wide..um...girl. It has got to be the industry where someone with literally no qualifications can earn the most money. I know that used to apply to City Traders and Barristers Clerks too, but not sure if it still does. So what dose this person actually do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petethegeek Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 So what dose this person actually do? As outlined in the video case study contained in this link presumably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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