CZ455 with Factory or Custom barrel .22 or .17hmr WHICH?

[marklestrange]

Here is the question:

IF you were you going to get a CZ455 with barrel swap facility would you with your initial purchase

 

1) Get it with a factory (varmint) barrel in .22 and then get a lilja barrel in .17hmr

or

2) Get it with a factory barrel in .17hmr and purchase a Lilja in .22

Which caliber would be the better 'accuracy' upgrade and make the most difference.

The cost is pretty much the same either way so .........?

 

 

Lilja link: ( http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/cz_455.htm)

 

 

[lewis2012]

I have a cz455 thumbhole varmint and its very accurate although heavy. I was under the impression that the interchangeble barrels were for usa not for uk at least thats what my local rfd said when i purchased it.

[CharlieT]

Neither, it is my opinion that the inconsistencies in rimfire ammo far outweigh the small advantage of fitting a non factory barrel.

[marklestrange]

Lewis:
They are selling them in the US as a 'user changeable kit' of multiple calibered barrels matched to the receiver. In the UK the 'kit' isn't being sold, but you can (or will be able to) get any of the available calibers of replacement barrel. Lapping would fit them better than the best 'fit from a batch' anyway from what I have read. Because of this they are saying for the UK that first fitment of a different barrel should be done by a gunsmith. I think this is to do with checking go/no-go on the headspace on initial fitment, as this will not have been checked at the factory for a new barrel not sold with the new rifle.

 

Thanks CharlieT,
I have to say I think you are pretty much right, but if I'm going to get a new barrel in a different caliber anyway (rather than replace a perfectly good one) then that argument isn't that strong. If it were a replacement barrel I have to say at least at my level of shooting it won't make a lot of difference and I'd agree totally, not a good return on investment. A lilja at $385US is I presume quite a bit more than a new CZ factory barrel (?) but reading the US threads can tighten up a group by up to half at 50m. with some receiver bedding/pillars and a bit of diligent experimentation...admittedly at a fair cost.

Edited July 5, 2013 by marklestrange

[Dekers]

Here is the question:

IF you were you going to get a CZ455 with barrel swap facility would you with your initial purchase

 

1) Get it with a factory (varmint) barrel in .22 and then get a lilja barrel in .17hmr

or

2) Get it with a factory barrel in .17hmr and purchase a Lilja in .22

Which caliber would be the better 'accuracy' upgrade and make the most difference.

The cost is pretty much the same either way so .........?

 

 

Lilja link: ( http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/cz_455.htm)

 

 

 

Why do you want anything but factory, the HMR is laser like accuracy wise anyway and as said, .22lr ammo can be all over the shop.

 

What do you NEED most, calibre wise? This calibre/barrel swap facility is no more than an end user extension of the normal manufacturing process, made famous by the Quad of course.

 

Two barrels are a pain in the backside if you need both a lot, buy 2 guns, not 2 barrels, if you don't buy 1 barrel and see how you get on.

 

The Quad is used dramatically more as a stand alone gun, there are only a handful of people who have, or even use, the multi barrels they have bought.

[marklestrange]

Dekers thanks for the reply.

 

I need a .22lr for bunnies for the table.

 

I want a .17hmr for:

I'm in the process of joining a 'centerfire' club with a looooooong range.
I'm not sure they really want members with .22lr, but I'm keen to get on board because of the range and depth of experience in this particular club.
The 17hmr would primarily be for target use (100m - 200m) with a single shot adapter and sling, the aim being to get experience of windage etc and improve my skills on my route to getting a centerfire and eventually do some stalking.
I'd like to learn how to 'fettle' a rifle for the best accuracy too.
I'll be playing with bedding, pillars and bike inner tubes etc to barrel tune anyway - I wont be able to help myself lol.
Does that make more sense now?
(all advice welcome :-) )

From advice received from a couple of shooting forums I'm going to get the CZ455TH SST in .22lr (which I now have on pre-order).

I enjoy 'fiddling' (I ride a Ducati - if you don't fiddle they don't work lol) and have more time than money so I don't mind messing about changing barrels.

Edited July 6, 2013 by marklestrange

[Dekers]

.................................. A lilja at $385US is I presume quite a bit more than a new CZ factory barrel (?) but reading the US threads can tighten up a group by up to half at 50m. with some receiver bedding/pillars and a bit of diligent experimentation...admittedly at a fair cost.

 

The only logical answer to that is it started with a **** barrel.

 

If you have a NORMAL CZ barrel to start with that statement is Pooh!

 

A CZ barrel with the right ammo will provide excellent results for field work, and if you are after serious target work you will not buy a CZ anyway.

 

The fact is, bad to good ammo can easily tighten up groups by 50% or MORE, if a barrel swap on a CZ improves accuracy 50% then the barrel was duff, all else being equal.

 

Bedding a rimfire of any sort will bring marginal or no benefit!

 

You can buy a CZ off the shelf and spend a fortune doing anything you want with it, and I defy anyone to improve its accuracy 50% at 50m. At that distance any factory CZ should put .22lr or HMR in pretty much the same hole!

 

Edited July 6, 2013 by Dekers

[Dekers]

I'm in the process of joining a 'centerfire' club with a looooooong range.

I'm not sure they really want members with .22lr, but I'm keen to get on board because of the range and depth of experience in this particular club

The 17hmr would be for this caliber quite long range target use (100m - 200m) with a single shot adapter and sling, the aim being to get experience of windage etc and improve my skills on my route to getting a centerfire and eventually do some stalking.

I'd like to learn how to 'fettle' a rifle for the best accuracy.

Does that make more sense now?

(all advice welcome :-) )

 

Not to me, changing barrels all the time is certainly not an aid to accuracy, and if you want serious accuracy as you seem to suggest, why are you buying CZ?

 

Don't get me wrong, any NORMAL CZ will be very accurate, but serious target tools are more so, but 50% better....I don't think so!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Dekers

[marklestrange]

So for the club/target use you would get standard CZ .17hmr?

 

Getting an alternate .17hmr barrel will cost a LOT less than another rifle and tons less than getting an Arnie as a second rifle which is out of my price range (I have the slots available).

I thought that using the same stock and the same SST trigger would help me with some consistency.

I'm not into competition shooting, (unless it's competing with myself) just on improving as much as I can with a useable tool at say 200m

 

Have you an alternative solution considering my two separate goals, (field bunnies and centerfire 'trainer') but bearing in mind I'm a new fac with a very small budget.

Edited July 6, 2013 by marklestrange

[Dekers]

So for the club/target use you would get standard CZ .17hmr?

 

Getting an alternate .17hmr barrel will cost a LOT less than another rifle and tons less than getting an Arnie as a second rifle which is out of my price range (I have the slots available).

I thought that using the same stock and the same SST trigger would help me with some consistency.

I'm not into competition shooting, (unless it's competing with myself) just on improving as much as I can with a useable tool at say 200m

 

Have you an alternative solution considering my two separate goals, (field bunnies and centerfire 'trainer') but bearing in mind I'm a new fac with a very small budget.

 

 

A HMR is not normally recognised as a target tool. Any calibre can be used for target work of course (club/range rules permitting), but few people will get a HMR granted solely for Target!

 

200 yards is way too much for .22lr normally, and on the far edge of HMR! As for accuracy generally using the same stock and trigger, do competition/target shooters use the same stock and trigger and keep changing the barrel? You will need to check zero if you simply get a different batch of the same ammo, what do you think is likely to happen if you change barrels...and then there is the scope zero issue as well!

 

I'm getting confused with your accuracy, barrels, distance, calibres, trainer, etc scenario. I'm thinking you are spending too much time reading/thinking, and finding/looking for issues that don't exist. Your comments are at odds with each other, not a criticism and common in someone new to shooting.

 

Get 2 Used CZ, 452 or 453 are fine, even some of the older BRNO models are excellent still, VERY few ever wear out a .22lr barrel and if it doesn't shoot straight take it back, some RFD offer the chance to try before you buy as well.

 

That will be cheaper than a NEW 455 with 2 barrels, and FAR more convenient.......... and please don't say you need 2 x £500 Plus scopes that way, you don't, £100 each buys you better scopes than you will ever need on a rimfire for field work, and they can commonly already be fitted on used guns!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Dekers

[marklestrange]

Thanks Dekers, no offence taken ...and yes I'm aware I'm WELL over thinking this lol.
My .17hmr slot was granted for foxing/rabbit/target in addition to the .22lr.

 

I have just got myself a batch lot of 6 scopes of ebay as a job lot for £36 quid all in, and on initial sighting seem to have scored as I've got a Simmons that seems great and a Nicko sterling that also seems pretty good as well as two more that look promising - two don't focus right and one of them the cross hairs look out, but I've only just got them (15 mins ago) so need to go play! Thanks for your input mate, it is appreciated

 

Back from playing and I have 4 capable .22 scopes with a beaten one and a rubbish one. All that was needed was adjustment of the OL to focus them

Edited July 6, 2013 by marklestrange

[bicykillgaz]

Just out of curiosity what would you us bike inner tube for to tune a barrel? Never heard of it before so thought I'd ask.

 

Gary

[marklestrange]

Hi Gary,

In the 6 months it's taken me to think "I need my own rifle" to now, I've done a lot of reading, originally about 10/22s and more recently the CZ4**'s.
I'm an IT lecturer and major geek- it's what i do.
Please remember (Faulty Towers Emmanuelle voice) "I know noooothing" just what I've read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but fyi:
There are a lot of methods of tuning - just bedding an action can be achieved in about half a dozen ways, from damning to blobbing, partial, full, with or without pillars.
Barrel tuning from lapping, free float, part free float, fully supported, supported at balance point, supported at rear with a moveable support sliding down barrel and it goes on... and that's before barrel extensions, shrouds sliding weights etc. This stuff applies to any rifle but if you want specific stuff for the CZ here is a link:

http://rimfireshooting.com/index.php?showtopic=10333

Sorbothane is the 'pro' stuff but inner tube seems to work for many.
There are hundreds of such articles across dozens of sites though, this is just the first I looked up for you (last one I read).

 

I have noticed a massive difference between the UK and the US shooters and oddly enough it's exactly the same difference as with motorcycles.
[Warning: Gross generalisations to follow]

The Americans want their bike to perform to the max and be as personal to themselves as possible.
To that end they will customise, tune, replace, tweak a new motorcycle from the day they get it, even before, but having it partially pre-customised by the dealer.
Often you will look at a bike and say - well that "$^$^$^" cost as much as a "$^£^£&" so why didn't you buy one of those in the first place?
That is very British - we seem to just want the vanilla flavour from the dealer. A 'Standard bike' is a selling point, in the US the opposite is true.

I'm often seen as being anti-american (which I am not) but in this case they really have it - they are not afraid to experiment. improve and innovate - we just consume what we are given. The rifle version of that is "Well you can't use a CZ for that you have to buy an Arnie" Well the Americans don't think that way, even if starting with a CZ is a harder route. God we are a negative miserable bunch of *****s in this country sometimes.

USA USA USA lol

Edited July 7, 2013 by marklestrange

[jay222]

Nothing wrong with trying a few things out to see if any improvements can be had

[CharlieT]

Just out of curiosity what would you us bike inner tube for to tune a barrel? Never heard of it before so thought I'd ask.

 

Gary

As an example..........

On 10/22's there is a little fabric washer on the front screw between the stock and the barrel, some swap this for a bit of inner tube to improve harmonics.

 

Others like you and me just shoot the ruddy thing !!

[dadioles]

Dekers has got it just about spot on.

 

Buy a .22lr and also a .17hmr and just get out there and do some shooting.

 

CZ are good and sensibly priced. Make sure the barrel is floating and fit a trigger kit. That is about all that is worth doing.

 

Now you can satisfy your geek curiosity by trying different makes of ammunition to find what gives the tightest groups and then continue the fun by accurately plotting the trajectory by shooting at targets at different known ranges.

 

Taking your geek credentials even further (I am aged geek with multiple geek t'shirts) you can then play with ballistics software (Chairgun is not bad) and quickly realise that there is no substitute for real experience.

 

A chronometer and laser rangefinder are essential additions - especially the rangefinder.

 

Welcome to the world of endless fun.

[alendil]

Or get second hand anshutz

mine is from late 50's early 60's

it is mora acurate with winchester subs that i need for bunnys

 

about 1/2 inch at 50 yards of bench and solid rest

its fited with 3-9x50 hawke scope and all in total was 295 gbp.

 

it will stay with me to end of my shooting days.

 

and if you think about .17hmr go for CZ452 (just take normal barel not varmint as i did ) and it will shoot 1/2 inch 100m all day long.

[bicykillgaz]

As an example..........

On 10/22's there is a little fabric washer on the front screw between the stock and the barrel, some swap this for a bit of inner tube to improve harmonics.

 

Others like you and me just shoot the ruddy thing !!

Im always curious about things like this, if it works then it seems daft not to try. Would this principle work with the barrel lug on my cz452 varmint by making a washer to go between the lug and stock? Might knock one up tonight and test it at the range tomorrow.

 

And thanks for the indepth answer to my original question.

 

Gary