insurance on private land?

[Joshcup11]

Do you need insurance to drive on private land?

[Rushjob]

If the private land is also somewhere that the public , or part of the public have access to, then yes you do.

[stubby]

are we talking car insurance or public liability insurance

[Rushjob]

Josh, having seen your other post, I know where you're coming from now.

 

You should be fine providing there are no public footpaths, bridleways, UCR's or other rights of way on the land.

 

Any of those is a highway, therefore all of the Road Traffic Act comes in to play.

[Luckyshot]

Josh, having seen your other post, I know where you're coming from now.

 

You should be fine providing there are no public footpaths, bridleways, UCR's or other rights of way on the land.

 

Any of those is a highway, therefore all of the Road Traffic Act comes in to play.

 

Footpaths and bridle ways are not highways so insurance isn't needed. How do you think most farmers get about their land as all mine use quads which are not agri registered or insured as they never go on the road.

[Rushjob]

 

Footpaths and bridle ways are not highways so insurance isn't needed. How do you think most farmers get about their land as all mine use quads which are not agri registered or insured as they never go on the road.

 

Your comment is incorrect - please do a little research before giving out advice, the OP could take your comments as correct, follow them and get himself into bother - precisely what he was trying to avoid by asking the question - you also run the risk of making yourself look a bit daft.

 

An interesting read for you could be this http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/publicrightsofwayadvice_tcm6-13878.pdf

 

Particularly the bit saying this

 

There are three types of public right of way:

• If the highway is a footpath it may be used for walking.

• If the highway is a bridleway it may be used for riding or leading a horse, as well as for walking. Cycling is also permitted, providing the cyclists give way to riders and pedestrians. Driving a horse-drawn vehicle is not permitted.

• A byway open to all traffic (usually called a ‘byway’) is used for walking, riding, leading a horse or cycling. There is also a right to use any kind of wheeled vehicle, including motor cars and horse-drawn vehicles.

 

I've linked to the whole document to avoid suggestions that I've quoted out of context - anyone with a modicum of experience in off roading would know the above anyway.

 

 

And finally, a lift from the Highway Code....

 

7. The road user and the law

The following list can be found abbreviated throughout the Code. It is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, but a guide to some of the important points of law. For the precise wording of the law, please refer to the various Acts and Regulations (as amended) indicated in the Code. Abbreviations are listed below.

Most of the provisions apply on all roads throughout Great Britain, although there are some exceptions. The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)).

It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks). In most cases, the law will apply to them and there may be additional rules for particular paths or ways. Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also apply to all public places, for example public car parks.

I work on the premise of better safe than sorry - Josh will possibly be exempt from the restrictions of physically driving on footpaths and bridleways under the permission of the landowner ( or land manager as the Natural England document refers to it ), however, should he be out and about and be challenged by one of the bobble hat brigade asserting their right to wander here and there, there is potential for his being spoken to by the Police and his use of a vehicle without insurance or licence could be an interesting legal argument which may impinge on his ability to get a driving licence and insurance once he is of age, but more pertinently, the grant of any shotgun or FAC in the future.

 

Edited September 24, 2013 by Rushjob

[RED BEARD]

By that reckoning it should be easy to get a 4x4 booked down as an agricultural vehicle in order to gain insurance,and in the process making it mot exempt,tax free and legal to run on the road on red diesel,although there would be a limit to the distance it could travel from the farm........I think.

Edited September 24, 2013 by RED BEARD

[Luckyshot]

 

 

Your comment is incorrect - please do a little research before giving out advice, the OP could take your comments as correct, follow them and get himself into bother - precisely what he was trying to avoid by asking the question - you also run the risk of making yourself look a bit daft.

 

An interesting read for you could be this http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/publicrightsofwayadvice_tcm6-13878.pdf

 

Particularly the bit saying this

 

There are three types of public right of way:

• If the highway is a footpath it may be used for walking.

• If the highway is a bridleway it may be used for riding or leading a horse, as well as for walking. Cycling is also permitted, providing the cyclists give way to riders and pedestrians. Driving a horse-drawn vehicle is not permitted.

• A byway open to all traffic (usually called a ‘byway’) is used for walking, riding, leading a horse or cycling. There is also a right to use any kind of wheeled vehicle, including motor cars and horse-drawn vehicles.

 

I've linked to the whole document to avoid suggestions that I've quoted out of context - anyone with a modicum of experience in off roading would know the above anyway.

 

 

And finally, a lift from the Highway Code....

 

7. The road user and the law

The following list can be found abbreviated throughout the Code. It is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, but a guide to some of the important points of law. For the precise wording of the law, please refer to the various Acts and Regulations (as amended) indicated in the Code. Abbreviations are listed below.

Most of the provisions apply on all roads throughout Great Britain, although there are some exceptions. The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)).

It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks). In most cases, the law will apply to them and there may be additional rules for particular paths or ways. Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also apply to all public places, for example public car parks.

I work on the premise of better safe than sorry - Josh will possibly be exempt from the restrictions of physically driving on footpaths and bridleways under the permission of the landowner ( or land manager as the Natural England document refers to it ), however, should he be out and about and be challenged by one of the bobble hat brigade asserting their right to wander here and there, there is potential for his being spoken to by the Police and his use of a vehicle without insurance or licence could be an interesting legal argument which may impinge on his ability to get a driving licence and insurance once he is of age, but more pertinently, the grant of any shotgun or FAC in the future.

 

 

 

The simple thing is then to stick to the private land and do not cross the footpaths or bridleways "at least whilst no one is looking"

Edited September 24, 2013 by Luckyshot

[al4x]

We've got a bit of an issue with ****** on quads and were they able to catch them the local plod seem to reckon they can seize them for no insurance. I can't see they would be interested in legitimate farm use though

[CharlieT]

If the private land is also somewhere that the public , or part of the public have access to, then yes you do.

 

Only as far as public liability insurance is concerned.

As far a agricultural land is concerned, vehicle insurance is only required where the general public has a legal right for the passage of vehicles. The public has no legal vehicular right of passage on footpaths or bridalways.

 

It has nothing to do with public access the law refers to vehicles.

[webber]

PLease check the policy, but I'm quite sure that the insurance associated with BASC membership covers the use of vehicles off road.

 

So making use of the shoot quad (not on the road) you are covered.

 

Maybe David BASC can elaborate.

 

webber

[David BASC]

If you are using a vehicle off road that is not licenced for road use, such as a quad for example and you are a BASC member, then third party liability cover is in place with your membership.

 

If the vehicle goes on the highway at any time then it is subject to compulsory motor insurance and in that case the BASC liability policy will not apply as any liability claim must be made against the motor policy.

 

Please check the wording of your policy and check with your insurer about using your motor off road for shooting and related activities, some policies exclude this activity.

 

If you are using your motor to pull a beaters trailer, on or off road, again please double check with your insurance company as again this activity could be excluded.

 

Remember too that you cannot use vehicles with Red Diesel for shoot activities, shooting does not count as an activity that allows the use of Red Diesel.

 

Yes we have worked with our brokers to put in place motor policies that cover pulling beaters trailers on / off road driving, to be honest there have been a couple of teething problems, but this will sorted by the end of the week.

 

David

[Luckyshot]

 

 

Your comment is incorrect - please do a little research before giving out advice, the OP could take your comments as correct, follow them and get himself into bother - precisely what he was trying to avoid by asking the question - you also run the risk of making yourself look a bit daft.

 

An interesting read for you could be this http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/publicrightsofwayadvice_tcm6-13878.pdf

 

Particularly the bit saying this

 

There are three types of public right of way:

• If the highway is a footpath it may be used for walking.

• If the highway is a bridleway it may be used for riding or leading a horse, as well as for walking. Cycling is also permitted, providing the cyclists give way to riders and pedestrians. Driving a horse-drawn vehicle is not permitted.

• A byway open to all traffic (usually called a ‘byway’) is used for walking, riding, leading a horse or cycling. There is also a right to use any kind of wheeled vehicle, including motor cars and horse-drawn vehicles.

 

I've linked to the whole document to avoid suggestions that I've quoted out of context - anyone with a modicum of experience in off roading would know the above anyway.

 

 

And finally, a lift from the Highway Code....

 

7. The road user and the law

The following list can be found abbreviated throughout the Code. It is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, but a guide to some of the important points of law. For the precise wording of the law, please refer to the various Acts and Regulations (as amended) indicated in the Code. Abbreviations are listed below.

Most of the provisions apply on all roads throughout Great Britain, although there are some exceptions. The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)).

It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks). In most cases, the law will apply to them and there may be additional rules for particular paths or ways. Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also apply to all public places, for example public car parks.

I work on the premise of better safe than sorry - Josh will possibly be exempt from the restrictions of physically driving on footpaths and bridleways under the permission of the landowner ( or land manager as the Natural England document refers to it ), however, should he be out and about and be challenged by one of the bobble hat brigade asserting their right to wander here and there, there is potential for his being spoken to by the Police and his use of a vehicle without insurance or licence could be an interesting legal argument which may impinge on his ability to get a driving licence and insurance once he is of age, but more pertinently, the grant of any shotgun or FAC in the future.

 

 

 

Not that daft after all then

[Kes]

 

Remember too that you cannot use vehicles with Red Diesel for shoot activities, shooting does not count as an activity that allows the use of Red Diesel.

 

 

David

However, if you have a vehicle and it is insured and you use it for shoot activities periodically then you can use red diesel - e.g. a tractor.

[David BASC]

A common misunderstanding of the HMRC rules.

 

You must always use duty paid fuel in road cars of course, I don't think any of us are in doubt about that, however, this is from the HMRC web site:

 

Red diesel in tractors can only be used for agriculture, forestry and horticulture.Activities not accepted as falling within the definition of agriculture, horticulture or forestry include:

◾ The breeding, rearing or keeping of any creature for purposes relating to sport or recreation.

◾ Dealing in agricultural, horticultural or forestry products.

◾ Landscaping.

◾ The maintenance of recreational facilities, including beaches.

◾ Flood protection.

◾ Peat or loam extraction.

◾ The exploitation of wild animal or fish stocks.

◾ Construction of buildings or other structures used for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry.

◾ Transportation of agricultural, horticultural or forestry produce, livestock, implements, inputs or waste, other than where this is incidental to an agricultural, horticultural or forestry operation being performed on the land. Accepted transportation uses are as set out under this agreement.

 

David

[Kes]

Quote above "Accepted transportation uses are as set out under this agreement".

This would have perhaps shown that certain uses are allowed - I for one, do use red diesel to run on the road as ancilliary support incidental to (in my view) an agricultural operation so, even by my definition I feel it is allowed and do not feel the need to check.

[David BASC]

Accepted uses in relation to agriculture, forestry and horticulture.Gamekeeping / Shooting is not and agricultural opperation I am affraid.

 

David

[Kes]

David,

Having now read the section 8.21 and the stipulations, I agree that it is not obvious how to escape duty but, if you look at the class of vehicle (exempt RF duty) and the distance from a place of keeping to the site, if you are the occupier of that land (for any purpose) and e.g. you are transporting seed or tools in a trailer for that purpose, It would seem to me there is an exemption. I also have to say from experience that a lot of farmers who rent land and do not keep plant on that land are apparently breaking the rules even for agricultural use by travelling to those tenanted fields. I think its a matter of scale and intent and, naturally knowledge within enforcement bodies, which, as we know, is limited once a specialism becomes involved.

 

Anyway I shall continue to use the red diesel (as do Tractor runs) on main roads, in my exempt vehicle duty tractor towing a trailer, being the 'occupier' of the land, butalways keep a tool or a bag of feed in the trailer !

 

For those who wish to read here is a link;

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000164#P182_16886

[David BASC]

If you are undertaking an exempt activity - ie agriculture, horticulture or forestty all well and good, if not it will get very expensive very quickly!

 

If you are an occupier of land because you are a farmer you have a good case of course, if you are the occupier as a shooting tenant, well that’s another story. Where does it say on the HMRC web site, in Sec 21 ' or the 10 Appendix 'for any purpose'?

 

Ultimately though it’s not me that you would need to convince by the HMRC.

 

All the best

 

David

[Kes]

If you are undertaking an exempt activity - ie agriculture, horticulture or forestty all well and good, if not it will get very expensive very quickly!

 

If you are an occupier of land because you are a farmer you have a good case of course, if you are the occupier as a shooting tenant, well that’s another story. Where does it say on the HMRC web site, in Sec 21 ' or the 10 Appendix 'for any purpose'?

 

Ultimately though it’s not me that you would need to convince by the HMRC.

 

All the best

 

David

 

It depends David on whether "the breeding or rearing of any creature kept for the production of food ", would supplant the shooting exclusion. On a small shoot where all the game produced is eaten by the participants, it would seem reasonable to argue that shooting it was incidental to the rearing of the game. I take your point that the HMRC are not given to charitable intepretation, however, how many people use red diesel in road going cars and get caught, it would seem that use would be the real target, having set out a memorandum of agreement with the main industries to 'control' their use ? Penalties relate to duty unpaid and a few forays to feed the animals you are rearing for food would not necessarily break the bank but may influence the reissue of SGC/FAC !

Edited October 1, 2013 by Kes

[David BASC]

It makes no difference if the game is eaten. The activity is excluded. I am sorry but there is nothing at all in the HMRC rules supporting your suggestion.

 

I accept the risks of getting caught may be small, but why risk breaking the law, and all the problems that will bring?

 

David