Electric Dog Training Collars

[scutt]

Don't do it. They might work for an experienced trainer who knows what they're doing but then an experienced trainer shouldn't need one.

 

They are not for a novice or someone inexperienced. I was persuaded to use one by a 'real trainer' and I regret it! At the end of the day the shock isn't nice and your dog will learn to with stand it so that he can do what ever behavior you are trying to correct so you might have to use higher settings.

 

I don't have time to go in to the full details but mine will be going in the bin. I now have a trainer that uses positive reinforcement techniques and in 5 weeks the improvement is amazing.

 

In my limited time in the shooting world I have realized there are some seriously backward thinking techniques (and people) which belong in the past. There is enough evidence now that shows that positive reinforcement works as well or better than aversion training!

the dog will only get used to it (or learn to stand it) if you use it wrongly and that is using it to many times as said before get the ground work done first decide what command( not commands) you have to enforce create the situation when it normally goes wrong and time your command to get the best results with the least use of the collar the command I used was the word NO after the dog did not respond to my original command (the command it was switching of to ) I shouted NO and used the collar at the same time and so set it up again then if the dog was about to do its own thing the word NO was enough to warn it that I still had a magic hold over it plus a lot of overboard praise has to be given to let the dog know its just done the right thing.This is only my experience with these collars .JUST TO ADD THIS the collar is not a short cut to training

Edited November 27, 2013 by scutt

[cracker]

JUST TO ADD THIS the collar is not a short cut to training

Best takeaway from this thread.

 

Curious, Nikk, what results or evidence, as I'd like to catch up to them, can you offer that "positive reinforcement works as well or better than aversion training?"

In my limited time in the shooting world I have realized there are some seriously backward thinking techniques (and people) which belong in the past. There is enough evidence now that shows that positive reinforcement works as well or better than aversion training!

 

MG

[Nikk]

Best takeaway from this thread.

 

Curious, Nikk, what results or evidence, as I'd like to catch up to them, can you offer that "positive reinforcement works as well or better than aversion training?"

 

MG

 

I doubt that very much. Plenty of stuff out there if you are interested though .

[al4x]

I'd lay money on you never having used or owned one Nikk

[PWD]

Could be a useful tool in the right hands..def not an amature tool it will do more harm than good, its a correction device not a punishment and if that's what people use them for then they have lost their way . A lot is down to timing and 99% of trainers won't have it right, its not a tool you can practise with either. No disrespect intended but if you're asking about one then its probably not the way fwd for you and your dog. A good trainer will get you further faster

[Nikk]

I'd lay money on you never having used or owned one Nikk

 

I'd lay money on you being 100% wrong

[Nikk]

Could be a useful tool in the right hands..def not an amature tool it will do more harm than good, its a correction device not a punishment and if that's what people use them for then they have lost their way . A lot is down to timing and 99% of trainers won't have it right, its not a tool you can practise with either. No disrespect intended but if you're asking about one then its probably not the way fwd for you and your dog. A good trainer will get you further faster

 

 

This is an excellent post. Yes they work in the right hands but the timing is everything. It's the timing that is the point and the issue I have is that I was recommended to use one by someone (top gun dog trainer) with no follow up or supervision. My original post stands that a good trainer shouldn't need one and for a so called trainer to recommend a novice to use one is completely stupid. The guys who use them and get good results are probably naturally good with dogs or have a lot of experience and could probably do without. Timing and patience is the way forward, positive training doesn't have to be treats and fluffy bunny rubbish. It's all about creating good memories.

 

I'm happy with the results I am getting and I regret seeing the trainers who advocated harsh techniques. I'll be sticking with this person for now on and I am getting more results in 5 weeks that my dog got from nearly two months residential with a professional trainer!

Edited November 28, 2013 by Nikk

[kent]

Nikk,

Yes they are totally great if you understand timing BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY when to use one and when never to use one. If you think you can stop a sheep killer with positive reinforcement you are dead wrong or maybe a dog that goes totally bananas barking and trying to bust out the back of the car when you pass a horse and rider. I have used collars for these things and recon on no more than a few sessions to cure. Stopping the car as above you loose the timing and shouting will only egg it on and how many dead sheep do you want to pay for while you are chasing the dog down (most are easy to stock break traditionally just a few are hell on legs)

To correct a dog that has poor recall, you will do more harm than good and an accidental trigger at the wrong moment could set you back months on many tasks or even totally ruin a dog for its intended life task.

You wouldn't believe the tasks and lack of understanding of these tools some people had when I sold my PAC dog off. This is the issue with many and I don't know the answer other than qualify the buyer, though I don't think licencing is of use or pro only use because some so called Pro trainers are very poor and licencing has never worked for most things.

[WGD]

In line with what kent has said, until you've had a few dogs through your hands and one or two with real "red mist" issues, don't condemn something out of hand.

 

Current trial bred labs, springers and cockers and generally soft tempered (don't confuse that with lack of drive) and if training is done properly at the right stage for then they are fairly easy to train. Now and again you get a hell raiser, bent on doing what it likes when it likes. You can do every stop whistle drill in the book but it still wants to chase hares (for example), in a case like that a collar providing correction at exactly the right moment can work to cure the problem and make an otherwise written off dog a very capable and dependable gun dog.

[Nikk]

Nikk,

Yes they are totally great if you understand timing BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY when to use one and when never to use one. If you think you can stop a sheep killer with positive reinforcement you are dead wrong or maybe a dog that goes totally bananas barking and trying to bust out the back of the car when you pass a horse and rider. I have used collars for these things and recon on no more than a few sessions to cure. Stopping the car as above you loose the timing and shouting will only egg it on and how many dead sheep do you want to pay for while you are chasing the dog down (most are easy to stock break traditionally just a few are hell on legs)

To correct a dog that has poor recall, you will do more harm than good and an accidental trigger at the wrong moment could set you back months on many tasks or even totally ruin a dog for its intended life task.

You wouldn't believe the tasks and lack of understanding of these tools some people had when I sold my PAC dog off. This is the issue with many and I don't know the answer other than qualify the buyer, though I don't think licencing is of use or pro only use because some so called Pro trainers are very poor and licencing has never worked for most things.

 

You are completely right there, I am not saying zero aversion so I should have made that clear. Saying no in a sharp voice is aversion and dogs do need a form of punishment/correction/consequence so I gladly correct myself there.

 

What I was really getting at is that most dogs don't need an e-collar or harsh training methods like scruffing etc. I think a lot of people turn to them out of frustration or bad advice then then get themselves in even more of a mess. In the hands of someone who is not basically an expert I recon it's going to cause more problems than it fixes unless it's for specific things like you mentioned.

 

My own experience is something that should be heard by people who aren't very experienced. I was told by a trainer that the only way to get recall with my dog was to use one. Badly times nips/shocks and complete inexperience causes huge amounts of problems, this 'expert' trainer thought it was ok for him to sell me this thing and let me loose with it with only one lesson! The trainer I have at the moment advocates positive techniques where ever possible, she is actually one of the top behaviorists in the region if not country and really knows her stuff. on the flip side she is not one of those fluffy bunny huggers that thinks a doggy will come back if you throw treats around, she explains that you build up a sequence of memories in the dog so that when it hears the recall whistle (for example) the dog feels excited due to the conditioning you have given it. I have seen with my own eyes this starting to work on my Lab in a very short time.

 

The other thing I wanted to add is that the guys who really know there stuff and have a great dog trained with an e-collar are probably really good trainers and I'll bet they're actually really positive and do well to get their dogs excited and keen to do things for them. They've just used the collar as a tool to correct something instantly. The issue I had with some of the trainers I have met in the past is they are quick to show the aversion technique scruffing/shouting/pinching/e-collar but didn't impress enough about the positive side of things. In many ways I think some of them were being a bit macho and showing off because a dog that only receives negative stuff wouldn't be any good yet they'd trained dogs well themselves.

 

So in a nut shell I am saying to the OP if you are an expert and it's the last resort use one although if you were you wouldn't probably be asking on here. If you are not then tread very carefully indeed.

 

Cheers

 

Nikk

Edited November 28, 2013 by Nikk

[kent]

In line with what kent has said, until you've had a few dogs through your hands and one or two with real "red mist" issues, don't condemn something out of hand.

 

Current trial bred labs, springers and cockers and generally soft tempered (don't confuse that with lack of drive) and if training is done properly at the right stage for then they are fairly easy to train. Now and again you get a hell raiser, bent on doing what it likes when it likes. You can do every stop whistle drill in the book but it still wants to chase hares (for example), in a case like that a collar providing correction at exactly the right moment can work to cure the problem and make an otherwise written off dog a very capable and dependable gun dog.

 

As long as you never ask it to chase a wounded Hare in the field But yes, the Proper red mist dog. To be fair I got rid of my set because I wouldn't keep hold of such a dog again- life is too short for that sort of stress Keeping one in "just in case" might lead to misuse rather than thinking the issue through in full and sorting it the old way- out smarting the dog!

[cracker]

Awfully good response there, Nikk - covered a lot of ground with thoughtfulness and from your own experience. Was the trainer you sought out who used e-collar stimulation for recall a professional retriever trainer, moreover was he a "pro" abroad (UK-based) or pushing the button in North America? If the latter, you should know, if you don't already, that proper e-collar use for retrievers - called "indirect pressure" - is altogether different than how other gundog and pointing dog trainers in North America invariably "apply" it. We really don't scruff or "man-handle" an errant retriever, either.

 

MG

 

You are completely right there, I am not saying zero aversion so I should have made that clear. Saying no in a sharp voice is aversion and dogs do need a form of punishment/correction/consequence so I gladly correct myself there.

 

What I was really getting at is that most dogs don't need an e-collar or harsh training methods like scruffing etc. I think a lot of people turn to them out of frustration or bad advice then then get themselves in even more of a mess. In the hands of someone who is not basically an expert I recon it's going to cause more problems than it fixes unless it's for specific things like you mentioned.

 

My own experience is something that should be heard by people who aren't very experienced. I was told by a trainer that the only way to get recall with my dog was to use one. Badly times nips/shocks and complete inexperience causes huge amounts of problems, this 'expert' trainer thought it was ok for him to sell me this thing and let me loose with it with only one lesson! The trainer I have at the moment advocates positive techniques where ever possible, she is actually one of the top behaviorists in the region if not country and really knows her stuff. on the flip side she is not one of those fluffy bunny huggers that thinks a doggy will come back if you throw treats around, she explains that you build up a sequence of memories in the dog so that when it hears the recall whistle (for example) the dog feels excited due to the conditioning you have given it. I have seen with my own eyes this starting to work on my Lab in a very short time.

 

The other thing I wanted to add is that the guys who really know there stuff and have a great dog trained with an e-collar are probably really good trainers and I'll bet they're actually really positive and do well to get their dogs excited and keen to do things for them. They've just used the collar as a tool to correct something instantly. The issue I had with some of the trainers I have met in the past is they are quick to show the aversion technique scruffing/shouting/pinching/e-collar but didn't impress enough about the positive side of things. In many ways I think some of them were being a bit macho and showing off because a dog that only receives negative stuff wouldn't be any good yet they'd trained dogs well themselves.

 

So in a nut shell I am saying to the OP if you are an expert and it's the last resort use one although if you were you wouldn't probably be asking on here. If you are not then tread very carefully indeed.

 

Cheers

 

Nikk

[scutt]

No disrespect but my experiences are with hard going spaniels and not Labs So take no notice of me

Edited November 28, 2013 by scutt

[Nikk]

He is a British trainer, his method at first was to nip the dog several times, the dog got startled as he didn't know what was happening at the same time he tugged the lead to get him to come back to him and as soon as he did he stopped nipping. His instructions for recall we're basically pip the whistle and if there is any hesitation start nipping till he starts coming back and stop nipping when he does. Don't get me wrong it worked and for a short while it was like having a remote control dog. Gradually through my lack of experience I sometimes applied the collar at the wrong time, sometimes it didn't work at all because the collar wasn't tight enough, other times his drive to do something was stronger that the aversion to the shock and I had to make it stronger.

 

Basically I shouldn't have been doing this alone, if we were going to go down that route he should have been making sure we did multiple follow ups and explain how to start off with small distractions and move up to bigger ones but he didn't explain anything really. I felt more like I was being used just as a cash cow, for example If I wrote him an email for his response showed that he hadn't even read it properly. My last contact was when I still had an issue with my dog lunging towards other dogs (through excitements not aggression) I said should I nip him when he does this...I got a very short reply saying yes! So predictably I actually made my dog cautious or even afraid to be near other dogs. Looking back I must have been utterly stupid but when a 'Professional' tells you to do something you believe them.

 

The reason I like my current trainer is she has been very generous with her extensive knowledge and educating me about the body language and how the dog's mind works. Where in contrast I was show 'tricks' by people who should have known better. Examples were smack the dog across the nose with a lead when his head passes my knee to make him walk to heal, scruffing and the usual stuff. The worse bit is that I have been through 4 previous trainers before I met this lady. I wasn't happy with what 3 out of 4 of them was teaching me so it wasn't like I was putting up with the first trainer that came along. One of them was actually a good trainer but the damage was already done and I needed a behaviorist not a gundog trainer but I was burying my head in the sand at the time.

 

I understand now how I could have used the collar properly, I could have broken each exercise down in to it's components and eventually it would have tied together but at the time I was lead to believe that it was a quick fix and thought I could go back out in to the world and carry on as before.

 

There is a silver lining to this story though, I now realize that by getting everything wrong (and I do mean everything) I now fully understand what I am doing to fix the issues and avoid them in the future the dog is making huge progress with lots of other issues as I stopped 'gun dog' training and started aiming for a happy confident dog. We are concentrating on gunshot desensitization, nervous behavior around people and loud noises (fixed in under 5 weeks!).

 

Anyway I could bore you to tears with my tales lol but 5 weeks ago I was so miserable I could barely look at the dog as I felt I'd screwed him up made him nervous etc and that even he was miserable to. Now even if I'm in a bad mood to start with I always get home with a smile on my face

Edited November 28, 2013 by Nikk

[kent]

He is a British trainer, his method at first was to nip the dog several times, the dog got startled as he didn't know what was happening at the same time he tugged the lead to get him to come back to him and as soon as he did he stopped nipping. His instructions for recall we're basically pip the whistle and if there is any hesitation start nipping till he starts coming back and stop nipping when he does. Don't get me wrong it worked and for a short while it was like having a remote control dog. Gradually through my lack of experience I sometimes applied the collar at the wrong time, sometimes it didn't work at all because the collar wasn't tight enough, other times his drive to do something was stronger that the aversion to the shock and I had to make it stronger.

 

Basically I shouldn't have been doing this alone, if we were going to go down that route he should have been making sure we did multiple follow ups and explain how to start off with small distractions and move up to bigger ones but he didn't explain anything really. I felt more like I was being used just as a cash cow, for example If I wrote him an email for his response showed that he hadn't even read it properly. My last contact was when I still had an issue with my dog lunging towards other dogs (through excitements not aggression) I said should I nip him when he does this...I got a very short reply saying yes! So predictably I actually made my dog cautious or even afraid to be near other dogs. Looking back I must have been utterly stupid but when a 'Professional' tells you to do something you believe them.

 

The reason I like my current trainer is she has been very generous with her extensive knowledge and educating me about the body language and how the dog's mind works. Where in contrast I was show 'tricks' by people who should have known better. Examples were smack the dog across the nose with a lead when his head passes my knee to make him walk to heal, scruffing and the usual stuff. The worse bit is that I have been through 4 previous trainers before I met this lady. I wasn't happy with what 3 out of 4 of them was teaching me so it wasn't like I was putting up with the first trainer that came along. One of them was actually a good trainer but the damage was already done and I needed a behaviorist not a gundog trainer but I was burying my head in the sand at the time.

 

I understand now how I could have used the collar properly, I could have broken each exercise down in to it's components and eventually it would have tied together but at the time I was lead to believe that it was a quick fix and thought I could go back out in to the world and carry on as before.

 

There is a silver lining to this story though, I now realize that by getting everything wrong (and I do mean everything) I now fully understand what I am doing to fix the issues and avoid them in the future the dog is making huge progress with lots of other issues as I stopped 'gun dog' training and started aiming for a happy confident dog. We are concentrating on gunshot desensitization, nervous behavior around people and loud noises (fixed in under 5 weeks!).

 

Anyway I could bore you to tears with my tales lol but 5 weeks ago I was so miserable I could barely look at the dog as I felt I'd screwed him up made him nervous etc and that even he was miserable to. Now even if I'm in a bad mood to start with I always get home with a smile on my face

 

I couldn't read all that it was making me mad - the trainer is no trainer he is a **** . You should never shock a dog that is advancing towards another for starters. To do so is likely to change body language or even worse be taken as an attack.

If you have an issue with this divert your dog, with a "Sit- look at me" manoeuvre or let the dogs get on with things.

 

Reading the last paragraph as I type this, dogs are great forgivers- leave it behind you, learn from it and now move on. A name and shame might help

[Nikk]

Thanks Kent he already has forgiven me, I just need to leave it behind but we are getting there. I am working very hard on Look (at me) command and 'leave it' and it is starting to pay dividends, I am being very patient but the important thing is that I am confident I am doing this the right way where as doing some of the stuff I was told to do I always doubted it and some things really didn't sit well with me. I was observant enough to see what this guys instructions were doing to the dog and the e-collar went in to a cupboard never to come out. I could write a book on the successes we have had in only a few weeks but today I managed a leave it of another dog and a look command to stop him looking at another dog and it worked really well, miracles have been happening in fact.

 

Onward and upward

 

Nik