Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[otherwayup]

From the BASC site it appears that only changes to the English licenses are being consulted on.

 

- Does anyone know if Scottish Natural Heritage are planning to consult on similar changes?

 

 

Also,

 

The reply from the BASC Policy Development Manager posted by Grandalf on page one of this thread states:-

 

"From 2005-2011 there were 349 specific licences issued in England to destroy up to 90,448 greylag geese eggs ..."

 

whereas the BASC website excludes the England reference, stating:-

 

"For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs ..."

 

 

So,

 

- Does anyone know if the 349 licences refered to were all in England, or could that number include other Countrys?

 

[islandgun]

birdsallpl

I got the reference from Kents post 106 I believe from BASC but maybe NE aswell

 

 

 

 

otherwayup

don't know about SNH I'll find out friday am

[islandgun]

 

Background

There is a proposal to add feral greylag geese and mallard to general licences which deal with the specific problems of crop protection and the preservation of public health and safety. Anyone controlling these birds must comply fully with the terms of the relevant general licences and must have the full permission of the land owner or occupier.

 

 

 

 

[scolopax]

Got to admit I did think of this earlier. If the addition to the GL went through with the wording feral included. I think it would be open to legal challenge, IMO there are very few genuine feral greylag in England and Wales. Our reintroduced wild birds would not be caught up in the GL.

[birdsallpl]

Found this on the web. Don't think it will make much difference to the legal argument though.

 

There are two main types of domestic geese. The first are thought to have their origins in Europe, descendants of the wild Greylag goose (Anser anser) and the second are thought to have their origins in Asia, descendants of the wild Swan goose (Anser cygnoides). Crosses between the domestic breeds which have originated from these two species of wild geese are fertile and in fact have resulted in a number of recognised breeds.

[islandgun]

Got to admit I did think of this earlier. If the addition to the GL went through with the wording feral included. I think it would be open to legal challenge, IMO there are very few genuine feral greylag in England and Wales. Our reintroduced wild birds would not be caught up in the GL.

I hope there is a point here i refer you to post's 106 and 107 this thread

[islandgun]

From the BASC site it appears that only changes to the English licenses are being consulted on.

 

- Does anyone know if Scottish Natural Heritage are planning to consult on similar changes?

 

 

Also,

 

The reply from the BASC Policy Development Manager posted by Grandalf on page one of this thread states:-

 

"From 2005-2011 there were 349 specific licences issued in England to destroy up to 90,448 greylag geese eggs ..."

 

whereas the BASC website excludes the England reference, stating:-

 

"For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs ..."

 

 

So,

 

- Does anyone know if the 349 licences refered to were all in England, or could that number include other Countrys?

 

Just spoke to SNH and there are no plans or discussions about putting Greylag on a GL

[kent]

Anser,

 

By the sounds of it we can agree that if a species, in this case Greylags, are causing damage to crops they should be managed and shooting is one option all be it under licence.

 

Contrary to what you think I am very aware of the concerns that that there will be groups of shooters targeting geese in their breeding season, and as some have said this would open up the opportunity for commercial shoots to start operating inland goose shooting.

 

However and please correct me if I am wrong, but after the wildfowling season as we pass into Spring and Summer, its my understanding that the geese break from their flocks and pair up to breed and raise their young in and around inland waterways such as ponds etc. As such commercial shooting like the inland goose shooting that occurs in the season would be a non runner as the density of geese would be so low in any given area.

 

I cannot personally see anyone wanting to pay a farmer £x to walk around his farm shooting the odd goose sitting on a nest can you? OK I accept fully that not every shooter may have the same standards as you, me or probably almost everyone we know but never the less does anyone on here think that such an activity would be attractive?

 

No I do not think it is acceptable to shoot a nesting bird and its young. I would never do it, and I don't think anyone on here would either.

 

To the very best of my knowledge the nest shooting has not been happening to Canada geese since they went on GL, so I struggle to see how there would be an incentive for anyone to do this to Greylags.

 

David

This is termed "reducing to the ridiculous", its desperate tactics and frankly the wrong one to take IMO. Trying to belittle people like anser2 just makes you and basc look ignorant fools. Remember who your supposed to represent because on the most basic level we the shooters put you there and we also pay your wages. If BASC wants to go to war with wildfowlers rather than listen it wont end well

[David BASC]

I am in no way trying to belittle anyone, I have the upmost respect for Anser.

 

So please Kent tell me exactly how my post is ridiculous?

 

Thank you

 

David

[kent]

I am in no way trying to belittle anyone, I have the upmost respect for Anser.

 

So please Kent tell me exactly how my post is ridiculous?

 

Thank you

 

David

You "reduced to the ridiculous" I didn't say your post was ridiculous, though the stance BASC have taken is. If you don't understand the term it matters little its what you did for reference just read the two posts and all should be clear from the description given by the term

[David BASC]

I am certainly familiar with the term in the context of selling a consumable product such as a motor car or high tech telly for example, would never have thought it applicable in the context of answering a specific point to a specific question on this forum!

 

Just out of interest do you agree with the points I made in that post?

 

David

[kent]

David, to be fair I think your fighting the indefensible case. I don't Envy Mark of his job at club level and I don't see why BASC don't do the right thing bad can only come of making that recommendation, for BASC, wildfowling, PR generally. What you and BASC need to be on now is damage limitation, if your in a burning building don't keep lighting fires its not a smart plan.

 

Listen to the strength of though coming your way

 

It don't matter what your selling an idea or an item the principle used was the same and why ask the question if you knew full well what I meant anyway? Its just basic school kid level objection handling, if BASC want training I can sort something for 2k a day at Chester

[David BASC]

Kent,

 

I fully understand that there are concerns that Greylag numbers will fall if they go onto GL, and as I recall there were exactly that same concerns over Canada's. However, since Canada's went on GL these fears have not been borne out have they?

 

Although there is clear video evidence of a few idiots shooting nesting birds, I don't believe this is widespread, do you?

 

Although there is clear evidence of some inland shooting in late summer just before the wildfowling season, we still see an increase in the number of Canada's bagged by wildfowlers.

 

So as I asked , is there any reason you can think of as to why Greylags would be and different?

 

What is , or are, the other key concerns?

 

And if every time I answer a specific question with a specific answer I am going to be regarded as reducing to the ridiculous so be it , but I guess the same would apply to everyone?

 

As to your offer of £2k a day to train me and others in basic sales techniques, I will have to respectfully decline, but thanks anyway

 

David

[guy baxendale]

David,

 

I like I guess many other BASC members replied to your organisation's consultation that neither Greylags nor Mallard should be added to the GL. The reality is SL provisions have been more than capable of dealing with the birds in the few areas that they are problematic. Under a SL birds are not open to abuse like they will be under the GL (Abuse that you openly acknowledge takes place). What reason are EN giving for the proposed change ? My best guess is this is just to remove some workload for them?

 

Did many BASC members reply to the consultation supporting this change? I doubt it somehow........BASC should represent the views of its members, admit it has made a mistake and remove its support for these deeply flawed changes.

 

Like others i will be taking my membership elsewhere.

 

Regards

Guy

Edited May 2, 2014 by guy baxendale

[David BASC]

Guy,

 

Of course we encourage feedback from members , and that's why BASC member have the opportunity to comment on all of our consultations.

 

However within the BASC constitution the members of BASC have a vote to elect from their number members to represent them, these members make up BASC Council and its Council that make the policy decisions, and I can assure you that wildfowling is very well represented on BASC Council.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[lee-kinsman]

How are people going to abuse the general licence if the landowners won’t let them? Motty, you gave a perfect example; the farmer in your case does not have a problem, so no one is going to shoot the geese on his land.

 

Where has the figure of ‘many thousands’ come from?

 

If a farmer has a problem he should be allowed to control them without having to go through red tape and delay.

 

Back to my point, its a mater of shooters working with their landowners.

 

David

there is a member on another forum who takes great delight in his mass killings out of season and his actions have led to the demise of the Canada goose population on my fathers shoot which must be forty miles away

the same will now happen with the greylag populations so saying "identify which farms are being affected" is totally stupid or at least ignorant

geese of any sort do not fly around with a safe good farmers guide in their pockets

 

David, BASC is not there to look after the perceived interests of farmers, they can look after themselves well enough.

 

BASC is there to support shooting and shooters, any diminution of the quarry available does not do that. Something to shoot, somewhere to shoot and something to shoot with.

BASC has got very good at telling us what we are having instead of asking what is needed , wildfowlers actually provided all the assets that BASC have today and now are the minority being ignored and spoken down to by BASC

[kent]

Kent,

 

I fully understand that there are concerns that Greylag numbers will fall if they go onto GL, and as I recall there were exactly that same concerns over Canada's. However, since Canada's went on GL these fears have not been borne out have they?

 

Although there is clear video evidence of a few idiots shooting nesting birds, I don't believe this is widespread, do you?

 

Although there is clear evidence of some inland shooting in late summer just before the wildfowling season, we still see an increase in the number of Canada's bagged by wildfowlers.

 

So as I asked , is there any reason you can think of as to why Greylags would be and different?

 

What is , or are, the other key concerns?

 

And if every time I answer a specific question with a specific answer I am going to be regarded as reducing to the ridiculous so be it , but I guess the same would apply to everyone?

 

As to your offer of £2k a day to train me and others in basic sales techniques, I will have to respectfully decline, but thanks anyway

 

David

 

David, the point of putting something on GL is to reduce its numbers by killing a full 12 months. Why on earth might anyone undertake pest control if it failed to reduce the numbers? That is (ok I wont say ridiculous) crackers, stark raving bonkers, insane. Wildfowl counts as anser2 has in his professional opinion pointed out are unreliable

 

You simply cannot go off wildfowlers putting in higher returns of Canadas as representing greater available numbers. Allowable boundaries have been moved (for instance the Dee) and some have removed bag limits as they the clubs feel under pressure to do their bit to reduce the need for inland culling during the summer.

 

Glad the joking offer was refused BASC you see shouldn't try and manipulate its membership they should act for it and remember who employs who. Take a note from the RSPCA it can go badly wrong and its hard to reverse a trend

[kent]

there is a member on another forum who takes great delight in his mass killings out of season and his actions have led to the demise of the Canada goose population on my fathers shoot which must be forty miles away

the same will now happen with the greylag populations so saying "identify which farms are being affected" is totally stupid or at least ignorant

geese of any sort do not fly around with a safe good farmers guide in their pockets

 

I THINK HE WAS BANNED OFF HERE, SEASONS OR SPORTSMANSHIP EVEN LAW MEANS LITTLE TO SOME

 

BASC has got very good at telling us what we are having instead of asking what is needed , wildfowlers actually provided all the assets that BASC have today and now are the minority being ignored and spoken down to by BASC

WELL SAID, BUT I DONT THINK THE EARS ARE OPEN. IF YOU REMOVE BRICKS FROM THE BOTTOM OF A WALL YOU NEED TO TAKE GREAT CARE BASC

[scolopax]

Good, I believe the Chatham house rules for council have been put aside ?

 

If so it will be nice to find out how each individual council member voted on the matter.

 

As we Wildfowlers also tend to vote for those standing for election to council, knowing who voted how will help influence our decisions come the next round of elections.

[kent]

Guy,

 

Of course we encourage feedback from members , and that's why BASC member have the opportunity to comment on all of our consultations.

 

However within the BASC constitution the members of BASC have a vote to elect from their number members to represent them, these members make up BASC Council and its Council that make the policy decisions, and I can assure you that wildfowling is very well represented on BASC Council.

 

Best wishes

 

David

So the answer seems to be no we didn't, we and the council are in charge. Well done! Things like this need a referendum or proper consultation in the next few days I will know more about if this opinion could even be given against (and it most surely is against the wildfowlers).

[David BASC]

Lee, I can only reiterate that the Canada population is increasing and more are being bagged by wildfowlers, but I would be very interested to lean how someone shooting Canada's 40 miles away is the reason for the drop in Canada's on your fathers land?

 

Please remember, as I said members of BASC elect the members who represent them, and wildfowlers are very well represented on Council.

 

Kent, I disagree with you are to the intent of the GL, its purpose is to allow the control of species when they are causing damage, not just to reduce the overall numbers. Many animals do not cause a problem until their numbers grow in a specific area to a point where they are causing damage.

 

I do wonder that if the bag returns had fallen, and the reports of Canada counts had fallen, what you would have said, unreliable evidence or....

 

Anyway, back to the question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer?

ta

David

[kent]

Lee, I can only reiterate that the Canada population is increasing and more are being bagged by wildfowlers, but I would be very interested to lean how someone shooting Canada's 40 miles away is the reason for the drop in Canada's on your fathers land?

 

Please remember, as I said members of BASC elect the members who represent them, and wildfowlers are very well represented on Council.

 

Kent, I disagree with you are to the intent of the GL, its purpose is to allow the control of species when they are causing damage, not just to reduce the overall numbers. Many animals do not cause a problem until their numbers grow in a specific area to a point where they are causing damage.

 

I do wonder that if the bag returns had fallen, and the reports of Canada counts had fallen, what you would have said, unreliable evidence or....

 

Anyway, back to the question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer?

ta

David

 

its purpose is to allow the control of species when they are causing damage, not just to reduce the overall numbers

 

The purpose creates the result, you just cannot kill a thing twice

 

 

I do wonder that if the bag returns had fallen, and the reports of Canada counts had fallen, what you would have said, unreliable evidence or....

 

Your sticking your head up over the firing line, you only think Mr Ali pays your wages, the members actually pay all your wages, the fact remains even the BTO say counts cant be trusted and should only be viewed as a long term trend, Yet again Anser2 has quoted the pinkfoot data of 100,000 to back this up. Counting sheep is far easier as yes geese can fly a long way 40 miles is totally nothing to a goose, it might kill a pheasant but to a goose its just a wee trip to the shops.

[lee-kinsman]

Lee, I can only reiterate that the Canada population is increasing and more are being bagged by wildfowlers, but I would be very interested to lean how someone shooting Canada's 40 miles away is the reason for the drop in Canada's on your fathers land?

 

Please remember, as I said members of BASC elect the members who represent them, and wildfowlers are very well represented on Council.

 

1. Kent, I disagree with you are to the intent of the GL, its purpose is to allow the control of species when they are causing damage, not just to reduce the overall numbers. Many animals do not cause a problem until their numbers grow in a specific area to a point where they are causing damage.

 

I do wonder that if the bag returns had fallen, and the reports of Canada counts had fallen, what you would have said, unreliable evidence or....

 

Anyway, back to the question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer?

ta

David

it may have escaped your notice or more likely your just choosing to ignore the fact geese do move around and unlike feral cats who may occupy a building/farm , geese have wings

the person who I refer to is between the Humber and Morcambe bay at the other side of the pennines to my father and the geese are suffering as a result of this persons actions

the same will happen to the greylag

[David BASC]

Quite so, I know you cant kill something twice! the GL allows control all year round of species that are causing a problem, no argument there, but that may not automatically mean a reduction in the total UK population will it?

 

I am genuinely interested how lee knows that a single mans actions will impact of a specific goose population 40 miles away

 

OK, so lets look at long term trends, 5 years, 10 years? Long enough?

 

Again back to my question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer?

 

David

[lee-kinsman]

Quite so, I know you cant kill something twice! the GL allows control all year round of species that are causing a problem, no argument there, but that may not automatically mean a reduction in the total UK population will it?

 

I am genuinely interested how lee knows that a single mans actions will impact of a specific goose population 40 miles away

 

OK, so lets look at long term trends, 5 years, 10 years? Long enough?

 

Again back to my question, what are the other concerns over and above over shooting inland in the Spring and Summer?

 

David

David your just ignoring what people have already pointed out and I feel your just playing games hoping everyone will get bored and go away

as for how I know that the Canada geese have suffered ,I have watched these birds over many years and quite a few of them could easily be identified even at a distance by the colouration as one example

this person kindly helped with identification by putting photo's up of his excesive bags and from the pictures were ably to identify individual birds which were known to us

once having 500+ birds visiting for many years and then vanish gave the game away as well