Canada's and the GL

[kent]

You're right, you obviously are superior to me, I can't help being a very humble man of the soil, who has worked my little bit of land for the past 55 years.

 

However, what I have learned is that farming is a constant struggle against the weather and pests, whether these pests be weeds, deer, rabbits, moles, pigeons or geese.

In the big scheme of things, what a few vociferous anti's have to say doesn't matter to me.

 

What does matter is that our lawmakers have taken a sensible, enlightened and pragmatic stance on the matter and have addressed agricultural damage caused by pests. Because of this enlightened view, I, for example, am able to control deer and Canada geese out of season, all the other avian pests listed on the GL and mammalian pests as and when I n

 

Quite why you or others feel the need to belittle and dismiss out of hand my and other farmers' needs is beyond me. But I guess that's just human nature and society's tendency to selfishness.

 

However, I can rest easy at night knowing that I have been afforded the ability to control these species if and when and for someone not of your league that will do me fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah jumping in a bit there I meant arguing facts on geese with a particular other person. There is no end to the right to shoot things and the disagreement of others, pheasants can be a pest, sheep can and I heck bet Swallows have cost me a few hundred pound in the last three years. This stinks especially as only last year we had a local lifting on the sale of geese! Lumps of meat falling from the sky and a ready market is the next thing. Wildlife is not there for us to do as we want with it we must protect it for future generations and Geese are very vulnerable to over hunting and natural disaster

[kent]

Good for you. I'll bet rhose in the Montrose basin cant wait for your return also.

Proves my point we shouldn't make sweeping generalisations.

Would I personally return to a place after not getting a shot after paying for digs, travel and shoot fees? No.

This is why its so hard to explain what we do, though trust me we really will die in a ditch to defend it just like the founders of BASC

[kent]

Commercial game shoots do it for financial reasons; that is their function. If someone is paying 35 quid plus vat per bird then they expect to get birds over them, as do all shooters paying for shooting, including those guided on the foreshore, however much that may cost. If they repeatedly don't get a shot after paying for travel, accommadation and shooting, would they go back next season?

You can't really make sweeping generalisations about any aspect of shooting though. There are wildfowlers who love to be 'out there' and will do their utmost to get a shot, but if it doesn't happen then it's no biggy.There's always next time. Us on our rough shoot will do our best to get a decent bag, because that is what we're here for, and despite the not too small amounts of money we've all put into it it doesn't always happen. But being out there with like minded people, most of whom just happen to be friends, having the craic and a few laughs, is enjoyable also.

We run our own rough shoot and our own syndicate; not all of us get shots, and again, despite the financial outlay, we do it year after year. It's all 'special' to me.

So I guess you might be steaming if BASC recommended put those birds on GL and encouraged those over your boundaries to have a go winter and summer if they wished. This is exactly what is happening to us. Heck I recon I could shoot many hundred pheasant partridge and grouse a year especially if I could have a go with the rifles on a summer eve. If NE wanted to allow this even though I am no game shot I should stand up and fight in your corner

[scolopax]

some excellent posts on this thread!

 

If it is was proposed it would be extremely difficult for anyone to argue against the GL being amended for shooting pheasants and redleg partridge out of season!! they can do a considerable amount of agricultural damage when in high densities, as well as being non native, 98% artifically reared etc etc.

 

Hypothetically how would BASC chose to oppose their addition to the GL

 

If they cave in on Greylags then sure as eggs is eggs it will happen

 

I am sure Mark Avery will be rubbing his hands over this one..........

Edited April 30, 2014 by scolopax

[Scully]

This is why its so hard to explain what we do, though trust me we really will die in a ditch to defend it just like the founders of BASC

Yeah, course you will.

[birdsallpl]

Good for you. I'll bet rhose in the Montrose basin cant wait for your return also.

Proves my point we shouldn't make sweeping generalisations.

Would I personally return to a place after not getting a shot after paying for digs, travel and shoot fees? No.

Hi Scully, you have just summarised everything I was trying to explain. You are only interested in the actual pulling of the trigger. Wildfowlers are different to that.

[Scully]

So I guess you might be steaming if BASC recommended put those birds on GL and encouraged those over your boundaries to have a go winter and summer if they wished. This is exactly what is happening to us. Heck I recon I could shoot many hundred pheasant partridge and grouse a year especially if I could have a go with the rifles on a summer eve. If NE wanted to allow this even though I am no game shot I should stand up and fight in your corner

I'm struggling to make sense of the above as none of it is logical, but I'll give it a go.

Why on earth would BASC ever recommend game birds such as pheasants are put on the GL? For a start their numbers are controlled from the outset, from egg to the table. Every aspect of commercial game shooting is controlled. The same cannot be said of wildfowl; the clue is in the name...wild and fowl.

This makes your second point of encouraging 'those over your boundaries to have a go' just as illogically invalid.

What exactly is happening 'to us'?

You can shoot as many pheasant or grouse with your rifle as you want so long as they're in season and on your land.

Have you lobbied any of the relevant groups or bodies regarding the GL and your opinions regarding Canadas?

I will stand shoulder to shoulder with any shooter and will lobby against Canadas being included on the GL if you so wish, but while they're on there as a recognised pest and the landowner says get rid, I'll get rid.

[birdsallpl]

Sorry Scully the use of 'only' is probably wrong perhaps I should have said mainly.

[artschool]

Wildlife is not there for us to do as we want with it we must protect it for future generations and Geese are very vulnerable to over hunting and natural disaster

sounds serious. maybe there should be a ban on wild fowling which must account for a large percentage of geese each year.

[birdsallpl]

sounds serious. maybe there should be a ban on wild fowling which must account for a large percentage of geese each year.

 

The amount of geese shot on the foreshore throughout the UK by Wildfowlers is miniscal compared with the amount shot over fields in the season. I could shoot geese over crops in Scotland for about £50 per morning and probably bag more than I would in the complete season. I have never done it and the practice I find completely abhorrent. This is not wildfowling.

[Scully]

Hi Scully, you have just summarised everything I was trying to explain. You are only interested in the actual pulling of the trigger. Wildfowlers are different to that.

I think you need to re-read my relevant post again.Perhaps I should explain myself a little further.

If I had paid good money to shoot, travelled to the Montrose Basin (I live in Cumbria) and paid for digs and not even got a shot I would seriously consider whether I went again. I was once offered the chance to shoot some geese up above Newton Stewart somewhere. I can't recall the exact location as it was a lot of years ago. ' There's thousands of the *******!' I was told. I could have lodged for free in a mates cabin at Carrick, but I simply wasn't interested. Wildfowling holds absolutely no interest for me whatsoever. If I was 'mainly' interested in pulling the trigger I would have gone.

I pay quite amountable sums (to me) to shoot only a few miles from my home; the money going into the syndicate I belong to and the rough shoot we have. We have just paid out for (and thankfully finished planting) 2000 Hazel, Hawthorn, Blackthorn and for some reason Maple (!) saplings which we have planted in the knackered hedgerows, and have been (still ongoing) thinning out the woods to encourage undergrowth and cover. I'll admit this work is all done primarily to improve the habitat for the birds and ultimatley the shoot, and all the work is unpaid, and as I'm self employed it actually costs me in more ways than one. If I was mainly interested in pulling the trigger I wouldn't be doing it.On many days on our rough shoot I have foregone the opportunity to shoot in order to beat for invited guests, who haven't paid a penny incidently; some of them are young lads who don't often get the chance to shoot. Again, if I was only (sorry, mainly) interested in pulling the trigger this wouldn't happen. You don't know me at all so are in no position to judge.

I have all the shooting I can handle immediately on my doorstep, whether it be stalking, duck, pigeon, fox, bunny or game shooting. On top of all this we are called upon to control pests on many pieces of land, and as I've said, if the landowner says get rid (and it's legal) then we get rid. If we suggested to a landowner we didn't approve, after he'd stopped laughing, he would tell us to **** off and get someone else to do it.

Despite your seemingly mystical, holistic experiences on the foreshore, it is a world away from what we are doing, which is PEST CONTROL. It isn't pretty, or 'sporting' , but pest control isn't.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Scully

[birdsallpl]

I think you need to re-read my relevant post again.Perhaps I should explain myself a little further.

If I had paid good money to shoot, travelled to the Montrose Basin (I live in Cumbria) and paid for digs and not even got a shot I would seriously consider whether I went again. I was once offered the chance to shoot some geese up above Newton Stewart somewhere. I can't recall the exact location as it was a lot of years ago. ' There's thousands of the *******!' I was told. I could have lodged for free in a mates cabin at Carrick, but I simply wasn't interested. Wildfowling holds absolutely no interest for me whatsoever. If I was 'mainly' interested in pulling the trigger I would have gone.

I pay quite amountable sums (to me) to shoot only a few miles from my home; the money going into the syndicate I belong to and the rough shoot we have. We have just paid out for (and thankfully finished planting) 2000 Hazel, Hawthorn, Blackthorn and for some reason Maple (!) saplings which we have planted in the knackered hedgerows, and have been (still ongoing) thinning out the woods to encourage undergrowth and cover. I'll admit this work is all done primarily to improve the habitat for the birds and ultimatley the shoot, and all the work is unpaid, and as I'm self employed it actually costs me in more ways than one. If I was mainly interested in pulling the trigger I wouldn't be doing it.On many days on our rough shoot I have foregone the opportunity to shoot in order to beat for invited guests, who haven't paid a penny incidently; some of them are young lads who don't often get the chance to shoot. Again, if I was only (sorry, mainly) interested in pulling the trigger this wouldn't happen. You don't know me at all so are in no position to judge.

I have all the shooting I can handle immediately on my doorstep, whether it be stalking, duck, pigeon, fox, bunny or game shooting. On top of all this we are called upon to control pests on many pieces of land, and as I've said, if the landowner says get rid (and it's legal) then we get rid. If we suggested to a landowner we didn't approve, after he'd stopped laughing, he would tell us to **** off and get someone else to do it.

Despite your seemingly mystical, holistic experiences on the foreshore, it is a world away from what we are doing, which is PEST CONTROL. It isn't pretty, or 'sporting' , but pest control isn't.

Scully, All I was trying to put over is that Wildfowlers are different to most guns. When your mate offered you to shoot geese north of Newton Stewart I would suspect it was on the fields not the foreshore. As per my post just now I wouldn't do it either. That kind of shooting has nothing to do with Wildfowling. I have never said I disapprove of any other form of shooting. If you look at my signature you will see I actually run a crop protection club.

[Scully]

Scully, All I was trying to put over is that Wildfowlers are different to most guns. When your mate offered you to shoot geese north of Newton Stewart I would suspect it was on the fields not the foreshore. As per my post just now I wouldn't do it either. That kind of shooting has nothing to do with Wildfowling. I have never said I disapprove of any other form of shooting. If you look at my signature you will see I actually run a crop protection club.

That's fair enough, but I still fail to see in what way 'Wildfowlers are different to most guns'.I've never crawled out of bed in the freezing dark to sit in a ditch to shoot wildfowl, but I have done so to sit in a storm in a wood to stalk deer. I'm not looking for an argument, but as far as I can see the only difference is the habitat and the size of the bag. No matter how anyone dresses it up, we shoot for our own enjoyment. If you're not enjoying it or it's not all about pulling the trigger, then leave your gun at home. As I've said, I sometimes do, and so did Scott, eventually for ever.

One or two of my mates pull my leg as I'm not too keen on shooting foxes. I will do it, and have done so many times in the past if there's no one else to do it, but I quite like foxes so generally lamp and leave the actual shooting to them if possible.

[CharlieT]

Scully, All I was trying to put over is that Wildfowlers are different to most guns. When your mate offered you to shoot geese north of Newton Stewart I would suspect it was on the fields not the foreshore. As per my post just now I wouldn't do it either. That kind of shooting has nothing to do with Wildfowling. I have never said I disapprove of any other form of shooting. If you look at my signature you will see I actually run a crop protection club.

 

Your website states Shooting is available to experienced members who must show a strong commitment to assisting the farms and your members strong commitment to assisting these farmers by maintaining a lasting co-operation with those that are experiencing excessive seasonal damage.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, if any of those farms were to suffer excessive seasonal damage from Canada geese, you and your members would refuse to help them out in their time of need.

[artschool]

 

Your website states Shooting is available to experienced members who must show a strong commitment to assisting the farms and your members strong commitment to assisting these farmers by maintaining a lasting co-operation with those that are experiencing excessive seasonal damage.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, if any of those farms were to suffer excessive seasonal damage from Canada geese, you and your members would refuse to help them out in their time of need.

lol.

 

this is called being hoist with ones own petard.

[birdsallpl]

Your website states Shooting is available to experienced members who must show a strong commitment to assisting the farms and your members strong commitment to assisting these farmers by maintaining a lasting co-operation with those that are experiencing excessive seasonal damage.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, if any of those farms were to suffer excessive seasonal damage from Canada geese, you and your members would refuse to help them out in their time of need.

Not for one minute would we refuse to help. The reality is apart from one occasion that I mentioned in another post they have never asked us to shoot geese but if they did we would. I think it is essential to differentiate sporting shooting and crop protection within the remit of the GL

lol.

 

this is called being hoist with ones own petard.

 

Not sure what you mean here, probably to subtle for me.

[birdsallpl]

That's fair enough, but I still fail to see in what way 'Wildfowlers are different to most guns'.I've never crawled out of bed in the freezing dark to sit in a ditch to shoot wildfowl, but I have done so to sit in a storm in a wood to stalk deer. I'm not looking for an argument, but as far as I can see the only difference is the habitat and the size of the bag. No matter how anyone dresses it up, we shoot for our own enjoyment. If you're not enjoying it or it's not all about pulling the trigger, then leave your gun at home. As I've said, I sometimes do, and so did Scott, eventually for ever.

One or two of my mates pull my leg as I'm not too keen on shooting foxes. I will do it, and have done so many times in the past if there's no one else to do it, but I quite like foxes so generally lamp and leave the actual shooting to them if possible.

Scully, I would love you to go out onto the foreshore with me. I think after what you have said you would truly enjoy it.

[Scully]

Scully, I would love you to go out onto the foreshore with me. I think after what you have said you would truly enjoy it.

You are correct; I know for a fact I would love it. Morecambe and the Solway are the nearest to me but I just don't have the incentive to go I'm afraid.

The geese above Newton Stewart were on flooded stubbles incidently, I believe. We erected a building at Carsphairn sometime beforehand so it could have been around there.

[birdsallpl]

You are correct; I know for a fact I would love it. Morecambe and the Solway are the nearest to me but I just don't have the incentive to go I'm afraid.

The geese above Newton Stewart were on flooded stubbles incidently, I believe. We erected a building at Carsphairn sometime beforehand so it could have been around there.

That's a shame Scully. I have never shot Morecambe but have met a lot that have and believe it to be good for Pinks? I have shot most of the foreshore roosts on the Solway, Wigtown being my favourite. It's probably only a couple of hours for you. If you ever change your mind Imwill hopefully have a group there next February and you would be more than welcome to join us.

[Scully]

Many thanks for the kind offer.

[kent]

I'm struggling to make sense of the above as none of it is logical, but I'll give it a go.

Why on earth would BASC ever recommend game birds such as pheasants are put on the GL? For a start their numbers are controlled from the outset, from egg to the table. Every aspect of commercial game shooting is controlled. The same cannot be said of wildfowl; the clue is in the name...wild and fowl.

This makes your second point of encouraging 'those over your boundaries to have a go' just as illogically invalid.

What exactly is happening 'to us'?

You can shoot as many pheasant or grouse with your rifle as you want so long as they're in season and on your land.

Have you lobbied any of the relevant groups or bodies regarding the GL and your opinions regarding Canadas?

I will stand shoulder to shoulder with any shooter and will lobby against Canadas being included on the GL if you so wish, but while they're on there as a recognised pest and the landowner says get rid, I'll get rid.

 

Sorry but gamebirds do create damage, I don't shoot them with the rifle just because they are on my land because although legally correct in season it is morally wrong. Putting pheasant on GL means NO SEASON think about that. Yeah, shoot grouse in May( as they tend to sit tight for the dogs great idea! ) Pheasant in June (heck its better weather )

wildfowl are managed, nearly all clubs stock at least some birds and I don't actually know a club that does no management. Look on websites like Westmoorland wildfowlers (WWA) look at the duck tunnels that many clubs now use, the work to create fresh and improved habitat in conjunction with NE, winter feeding during the cold weather bans that occur. The wild bit means they can fly away if things are not just right for them not that we cannot manage them in any way (management is not just letting in more chickens into a coupe, ask any grouse keeper as his birds are very different to French partridge and pheasants). This season the club mentioned got a teal ringed in Deeside and mallard ringed and released on its own ground have turned up on the Ribble floods at Settle North Yorkshire.

A good proportion of my time at present is being spent on the greylag and mallard proposed GL inclusion, though it seems our own shooting associations are the bigger enemy at present over and above Natural England (who at least consult in a more decent manner)

Our own shooting Org now uses the increased bag of Canadas to mean there are more to be had not the fact that we are trying hard to do our bit on the saltmarsh to lessen the requirement for Summer murder or high volume stubble shooting on stubble in the early on in the season.

Sometimes I loose faith in my fellow "sportsman" but its good to know that there are a few good ones out there (who I formally recognise and appreciate here BTW) who are like me prepared to stand up and be counted, as much as the murder, death kill guys like you cry for blood. Trust me there is so much more to it, its the chase that matters most not the capture and the exchange that takes place between the true hunter and his quarry (look on it as a pact if you like) its hard broken. I cannot explain that to people like you however hard I try but to be fair I can explain it to the conservation minded individuals and clubs / associations and many farmers with consummate ease. There are non so blind as those that don't see

[CharlieT]

.

Sometimes I loose faith in my fellow "sportsman" but its good to know that there are a few good ones out there (who I formally recognise and appreciate here BTW) who are like me prepared to stand up and be counted, as much as the murder, death kill guys like you cry for blood. Trust me there is so much more to it, its the chase that matters most not the capture and the exchange that takes place between the true hunter and his quarry (look on it as a pact if you like) its hard broken. I cannot explain that to people like you however hard I try but to be fair I can explain it to the conservation minded individuals and clubs / associations and many farmers with consummate ease. There are non so blind as those that don't see

 

How ironic that you should finish with such a phrase.

 

As a farmer, I would have hoped that you, of all people, would have been minded to support the GL and a farmers' right to protect his livelihood.

[Scully]

 

Sorry but gamebirds do create damage, I don't shoot them with the rifle just because they are on my land because although legally correct in season it is morally wrong. Putting pheasant on GL means NO SEASON think about that. Yeah, shoot grouse in May( as they tend to sit tight for the dogs great idea! ) Pheasant in June (heck its better weather )

wildfowl are managed, nearly all clubs stock at least some birds and I don't actually know a club that does no management. Look on websites like Westmoorland wildfowlers (WWA) look at the duck tunnels that many clubs now use, the work to create fresh and improved habitat in conjunction with NE, winter feeding during the cold weather bans that occur. The wild bit means they can fly away if things are not just right for them not that we cannot manage them in any way (management is not just letting in more chickens into a coupe, ask any grouse keeper as his birds are very different to French partridge and pheasants). This season the club mentioned got a teal ringed in Deeside and mallard ringed and released on its own ground have turned up on the Ribble floods at Settle North Yorkshire.

A good proportion of my time at present is being spent on the greylag and mallard proposed GL inclusion, though it seems our own shooting associations are the bigger enemy at present over and above Natural England (who at least consult in a more decent manner)

Our own shooting Org now uses the increased bag of Canadas to mean there are more to be had not the fact that we are trying hard to do our bit on the saltmarsh to lessen the requirement for Summer murder or high volume stubble shooting on stubble in the early on in the season.

Sometimes I loose faith in my fellow "sportsman" but its good to know that there are a few good ones out there (who I formally recognise and appreciate here BTW) who are like me prepared to stand up and be counted, as much as the murder, death kill guys like you cry for blood. Trust me there is so much more to it, its the chase that matters most not the capture and the exchange that takes place between the true hunter and his quarry (look on it as a pact if you like) its hard broken. I cannot explain that to people like you however hard I try but to be fair I can explain it to the conservation minded individuals and clubs / associations and many farmers with consummate ease. There are non so blind as those that don't see

Sorry Kent but I just can't take you seriously after your 'die in the ditches' post and your claim in another about protecting wildlife! You're killing wildlife for crying out loud.How do you think this latter claim would look in the eyes of those who oppose us? Ridiculous! We may protect the environment and create good habitat for the sake of the birds, but your purpose for this is exactly the same as mine. Stop romanticising and get a grip on reality otherwise your ramblings leave you wide open to ridicule and derision by our opponents.

As for your post above, I know gamebirds can and do create damage, where did I say they don't? There is nothing morally wrong about shooting pheasants with a rifle; you give the impression that you approve of shooting only if it meets your own code of moral conduct. How conceited can one man be? You're 'managing' (by your own admission) and shooting living creatures for your own enjoyment or entertainment and yet you want to impose your own holier than thou moralistic values on others?

Now you're claiming what we do as pest control is 'summer murder' ? Are you serious?

I've stood up and been counted in more ways than you know of; you don't know a thing about me. Your 'murder, death kill guys like you cry for blood' comment is hilarious, but ill thought out, even for a six year old.

You're right, there is none so blind as those who wont see, and this applies to those who can't read former posts. Or rather those who ignore former posts as it wouldn't suit their arguments. Read them; you'll find you and me have more in common than you would like.

[kent]

You see we are poles apart because even though I don't shoot a lot of pheasant with shotgun I see shooting them with rifles very morally wrong, they are not given any" Law or sport" in the view of this particular "sportsman".

There seems to be many phrases that are lost on you

[kent]

 

How ironic that you should finish with such a phrase.

 

As a farmer, I would have hoped that you, of all people, would have been minded to support the GL and a farmers' right to protect his livelihood.

 

In fact I do under a special licence, I am sorry but despite claims to the contrary GL is abused and it seems is now being encouraged by many as a means to more sport. I don't see killing during the nesting period as such. I have shot on SL its not as hard as many are making out once its been done the once at the venue and a return sent

Taking this right back I offered to help reduce the Canada population for a local farmer in the winter time a few years back (it was turned down) that's fair enough live and let live, come summer and dependant young the same landowner asked for help- guess who said no thanks that time. I think this illustrates the issue for me "fix the roof while the sun shines"