HDAV Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 I find this interesting, sounds like the hot line is still open under another name. I would have thought clubs and shooting associations would already report that type of behaviour. http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/counter-terrorism-officers-plan-week-awareness-8153785 hmmmm............... I wonder if this is Surrey specific or nationwide considering the National firearms facility including the home of the NRA/NSRA/CPSA are all in one spot (on/adjacent a military base)........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 yes it is. Unfrotunately because they have repackaged it as being about calling about general Terrorism, they can now safely victimise us gunowners, while maintainning the release of the ACPO letter to show good intentions. So if you get an unannounced visit they can say: Oh no it's not a matter that you have guns we're just doing a regular anti-terrorist check just to make sure that you're safe. Don't worry, BIG BROTHER is watching keeping you safe from yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 My goodness there really is an awful strong victim culture amongst some gun owners. Without a shadow of doubt the UK have fairly stringent firearm control legislation and there certainly is unlikely to be a relaxation of that, however to describe it as victimisation is to do serious discredit to genuine victims of bad stuff happening. Have you considered that there may be specific intelligence that there has been a higher rate of applications by a section of our society that demographically is perhaps more prone to subversive motivation. Perhaps there is specific intelligence that suggests there are already a number of existing licensed firearm holders that demographically fall into a higher risk group. The nature of this may be that the authorities are unable to do anything specific, because it is just a vague indication of a particular community, or to do anything specific may result in a backlash of claims of discrimination without having more credible information, etc so they are pursuing a wider approach full in the knowledge that it means banding a much wider category of people together, but the hurt feelings of a few sensitive souls is actually worth it. Perhaps if such a situation existed and the police did anything more heavy handed it might actually result in an even greater backlash against the wider shooting community by the non gun owning public. There are countless ways to look at the latest initiative by ACPO/Home Office, than just assuming it is simply another anti shooting agenda. If you confine yourself to a bunker mentality of "they are out to get us" then that is the only perspective you will ever see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 So far no terrorists have been caught infiltrating shooting clubs. Not even during the times that the IRA were active in the UK. I think you have a "let the government and ACPO do whatever they want mentality." It's basically not a problem, but don't worry I am sure that the government has never discriminated against us, I mean shooting is such a socially aceptable sport, it gets lots of positive publicity and that the media and govenrment would never link law abiding firearms ownership to gun crime or terrorism. /sarcasm off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Have you considered that there may be specific intelligence that there has been a higher rate of applications by a section of our society that demographically is perhaps more prone to subversive motivation. Perhaps there is specific intelligence that suggests there are already a number of existing licensed firearm holders that demographically fall into a higher risk group. Maybe they should learn from history, that terrorists don't need to apply for a FAC or steal firearms to get their hands on them. When is the last time a legally owned firearm was stolen and used in a terrorist attack in mainland UK. ? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Maybe they should learn from history, that terrorists don't need to apply for a FAC or steal firearms to get their hands on them. When is the last time a legally owned firearm was stolen and used in a terrorist attack in mainland UK. ? ? Does that mean there won't be a first time? I am not suggesting that is the reason, just offering an alternative to the "they are out to get us" approach much favoured on here. Just thinking out loud, the historical terrorism in your part of the world is very different to the threat we face now via islamic fundamentalism ( I am sure there are many other fundamentalists of other faith/secular ideologies too, just for the sake of balance). In Ireland it was much more organised under a strong chain of command structure with various brigades, divisions, etc although I am sure you still had individuals who had their own cause that were lone wolves too. The threat facing us now is much more widespread and happy to rely upon an individual or small group of individuals who are radicalised by a cause and don't have the benefit of working within a centralised structure where there is an already established supply chain for weapons. Let's consider that the very many websites encouraging sedition by individuals also encourage a much more individual approach on how to arm themselves. The individuals may not have any knowledge of criminal networks that would allow them to get illegal firearms, in fact they might be advised to stay well clear of that approach for fear of detection. After all a new face walking into a bad guy pub asking "where can I get a shooter?" might not get the best response. These individuals may well have led a blameless life to this point and would otherwise be perfectly entitled to apply for a firearm certificate and a shotgun certificate is actually fairly easy to get after all. So given that they potentially have a very fatalistic outlook on life, pursuing martyrdom, then they are not worried about getting captured after the event for using a licensed weapon, traceable to them, for nefarious purposes. They are not trying to rob a bank, make a clean getaway and live the high life on the proceedings, nor are they likely to be repeat offenders, it is an all or nothing gig. At close range shotguns are very powerful and effective, there are no restrictions on buying cartridges so they could assemble quite a supply with no fear of detection. So equip themselves with 3 or 4 shotguns, chop them down, conceal them in a coat and waltz into a shopping centre blasting away. The last act is to do themselves in or die in glorious martyrdom in a police shootout. Their motivation is very different to the terrorists in Ireland so their mode of operation could be very different too. Just a possible scenario that looks beyond the "government are out to get us mentality" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 So far no terrorists have been caught infiltrating shooting clubs. Not even during the times that the IRA were active in the UK. I think you have a "let the government and ACPO do whatever they want mentality." It's basically not a problem, but don't worry I am sure that the government has never discriminated against us, I mean shooting is such a socially aceptable sport, it gets lots of positive publicity and that the media and govenrment would never link law abiding firearms ownership to gun crime or terrorism. /sarcasm off. Nope I really don't have the mentality of "let the government or ACPO do what they want", I just like to think that I am not entrenched in a particular mindset. I am a firm believer that if you play the victim card then ultimately you become the victim. If you complain so vociferously and so often that the government are trying to take away my rights that eventually they will because people have harped on about it so long that it becomes self fulfilling, it becomes expected. People don't like other people who whine all the time, whether it is an individual or a group. If you are so self centred that you can only ever see your own point of view then people stop caring about your cause. It is like public service workers that strike, take the tube staff for example, eventually the public got so fed up with their constant strikes or threats to strike regardless of the inconvenience it caused everyone else that any large scale support the tube workers had evaporated. The shooting community, or any minority interest group is the same, if you go on about how everyone is out to get you often enough then people will take offence and actually go out of their way to get you. Absolutely sometimes you need to complain, but if you do nothing but complain then the message is lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69chris Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 anyone else see the ch5 news tonight ? a bit on there concerning the terror alert we're now at and an ad telling how, if you should hear gunshots, how you should run or hide and phone the police how long before an armed to the teeth police swat team are called out to a field near you when your out shooting cause someone heard/called because they were 'afraid' ?? incidently, i read the uk supplied something like 12billion quids worth of arms to whoever wanted them with little or no regard to what the buyers wanted them for, so given that, i find it hard to believe any terrorist cell would want or need out 12g shotguns or bolt action rifles...........if they robbed a house and turned up to show their mates their new gun they would be the laughing stock with a semi auto 22lr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 The shooting community, or any minority interest group is the same, if you go on about how everyone is out to get you often enough then people will take offence and actually go out of their way to get you. Absolutely sometimes you need to complain, but if you do nothing but complain then the message is lost. You call it moaning I am just standing up for the little gun rights we have let in the UK. I think I am not alone in this, other forum members share my point of view that ACPO is going too far and this latest piece of news about Surrey doing an anti-terorism exercise in my opinion is just like a slap in the face not just to shooters but to anyone who sees that terrorism in this country is way overblown. More people die from car accidents, bad medication and even chocking on your own food than terrorism, I mean be vigilent but keep things in perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 So given that they potentially have a very fatalistic outlook on life, pursuing martyrdom, then they are not worried about getting captured nor are they likely to be repeat offenders, incidently, i read the uk supplied something like 12billion quids worth of arms to whoever wanted them with little or no regard to what the buyers wanted them for, so given that, i find it hard to believe any terrorist cell would want or need out 12g shotguns or bolt action rifles...........if they robbed a house and turned up to show their mates their new gun they would be the laughing stock with a semi auto 22lr At least we're keeping our sense of humour; these two comments made me laugh. The logic of the British sense of humour is brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) At least we're keeping our sense of humour; these two comments made me laugh. The logic of the British sense of humour is brilliant. We do facetious very well indeed, although you misquoted me like a dodgy tabloid journalist Edited November 25, 2014 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 I mean be vigilent but keep things in perspective. The last part of your post is the most sensible thing you have posted in our recent debates. Make sure you follow that approach of retaining perspective towards everything, including ACPO initiatives and debates around concealed carry and you wont go far wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 We do facetious very well indeed, although you misquoted me like a dodgy tabloid journalist In the true spirit of tabloid journalism you are required to edit and quote out of context to suit your agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 In the true spirit of tabloid journalism you are required to edit and quote out of context to suit your agenda. Embodies the true spirit of many PW debates as well then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Embodies the true spirit of many PW debates as well then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Hmm this has got me thinking, perhaps we should embrace the idea, go to the "talks on terrorism" perhaps arrange sessions to tell our neighbours what to look out for, act as local coordinators, form an organisation, shooters against terrorists, then we can feed back all of this info to the police, help then sift through it, make regular checks on each other to free up the police resource, work with them, train to provide assistance in the event of an attack, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Their motivation is very different to the terrorists in Ireland so their mode of operation could be very different too. Terrorists are the same the world over tactics might be a bit different sectarianism and hatred. The killers of the soldier in London for example used a car and knifes. Using knifes was deliberate tactic not because they could not get firearms. If you are concerned about them getting firearms and coming on a shooting spree, that seems like a good reason for civilians and the police to be armed. Some examples. Muslim tactics. Islamist terrorists lined up 28 bus passengers on the ground and shot them dead for not being able to recite the Koran. Douglas Ochwodho, a non-Muslim, was ordered off the bus with 28 other mostly non-Somali passengers at dawn yesterday. He said that those who did not look Somali or could not recite an Islamic creed were separated from the other passengers. IRA tactics. A new full inquest is to be held into the IRA massacre of 10 Protestant workers shot dead in South Armagh in 1976. The men were taken out of their minibus and then riddled with bullets at Kingsmills. Their sole Catholic colleague was spared because of his religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Terrorists are the same the world over tactics might be a bit different sectarianism and hatred. The killers of the soldier in London for example used a car and knifes. Using knifes was deliberate tactic not because they could not get firearms. If you are concerned about them getting firearms and coming on a shooting spree, that seems like a good reason for civilians and the police to be armed. I believe they were carrying a pistol (murderers of Lee Rigby) but did not fire it, the intention is believed to be suicide by police (in their eyes martyrdom) I personally say well done to the Met Flying squad for keeping their miserable carcasses alive to stand trial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby The men dragged Rigby's body into the road and remained at the scene until police arrived. They told passers-by that they had killed a soldier to avenge the killing of Muslims by the British armed forces.[10] Unarmed police arrived at the scene nine minutes after an emergency call was received and set up a cordon. Armed police officers arrived five minutes later. The assailants, armed with a gun and cleaver, charged at the police, who fired shots that wounded them both. They were apprehended and taken to separate hospitals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Ordnance, it would seem that you will try and skew every example to suit your own agenda and to use those two examples to try and establish a pattern of commonality is complete opportunism and totally disingenuous. All I sought to do in my posts earlier was to suggest an alternate scenario to the "they are out to get me" mentality exhibited by you and many other contributors on this forum. It is interesting in the findings of the parliamentary committee who were looking at the circumstances leading up to the Lee Rigby murder that there is a complete acceptance that the type of terrorist threat that we face now is very different to what we have seen before. That report was issued today. There was actually a clip on the evening news tonight of the Chief Constable of Scotland saying a very similar thing. We are not facing the type of organised threat that we did with the terrorist organisations in Ireland. Attackers are being radicalised via Internet propaganda, they have no organised mechanisms or hierarchy, they are not part of terrorist cells, they are quite simply individuals who have developed such a powerful belief that they are prepared to act in that regard with whatever resources they may have to hand, which could be knife, car, firearm, big stick with a nail in it, etc. This is completely new to the British authorities, in fact it is completely new to most places in the world. The most significant threat to UK by terrorism is from individuals not associated with known terror groups, radicalised via remotely issued propaganda, they are very difficult to identify and track and they will improvise to use whatever they have at hand against non specific targets. They are also distributed throughout the length and breadth of the country so incredibly difficult to put in place any particular type of counter measure. Given the nature of a firearm, that it is specifically designed to inflict significant damage at a distance, it is perfectly reasonable that they should be considered as an elevated risk item, I would be very concerned that it wouldn't be. As I said earlier, there may well be intelligence to suggest that within the existing community of firearm owners that a certain section may be more subject to radicalisation, hence a very broad brush approach by the authorities to try and identify as early as possible of anything more specific. All I am doing is looking beyond the extremely narrow viewpoint that many are keen to express on here. And for the sake of completeness I am absolutely delighted that we don't have self appointed protectors carrying firearms ready to step in and act in the public defence. I have no issues at all with anybody who is a fan of guns, but I absolutely do have an issue with people who because of their enthusiasm think that they should have a right to carry them at all times in a society that absolutely and utterly cannot justify that. I believe they were carrying a pistol (murderers of Lee Rigby) but did not fire it, the intention is believed to be suicide by police (in their eyes martyrdom) I personally say well done to the Met Flying squad for keeping their miserable carcasses alive to stand trial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby Absolutely agree, better to have them face public justice instead of achieving their goal of martyrdom. I also hope that every day of their existence in prison is an utterly miserable one. Edited November 25, 2014 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 The current "terrorists"are different but not unheard of, they are more akin to spree killers than terrorist groups of old, they present a challenge but they will not succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 The current "terrorists"are different but not unheard of, they are more akin to spree killers than terrorist groups of old, they present a challenge but they will not succeed. I believe they are completely different HDAV, yes we have had instances of lone attackers in the past, but now there is actually a very well defined and supported cause and some fairly sophisticated mechanisms to indoctrinate a much wider range of believers. I guess in WW2 there was a similar approach by the both sides to recruit sympathisers via propaganda, but not with the same type of outcome. Ultimately they want to promote terror and fear, so in that level they are the same, but this is very different playing field. It is global, it doesn't really rely on local organisations, it doesn't have a plan to align tactical activities with a strategic goal, it does not discriminate in who it recruits and ultimately the people who do become radicalised don't care if they get caught or die. It really is quite chilling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Unarmed police arrived at the scene nine minutes after an emergency call was received and set up a cordon. Armed police officers arrived five minutes later. That's the point I find interesting, they were lucky this time the terrorists had plenty of opportunity to murder more innocent civilians, while the police set up a cordon and waited for armed response. On this occasion they chose not to continue and murder more people. They might not be so luck next time. In this part of the UK the first police on the scene could have reacted. There was actually a clip on the evening news tonight of the Chief Constable of Scotland saying a very similar thing. We are not facing the type of organised threat that we did with the terrorist organisations in Ireland. Attackers are being radicalised via Internet propaganda, they have no organised mechanisms or hierarchy, they are not part of terrorist cells, they are quite simply individuals who have developed such a powerful belief that they are prepared to act in that regard with whatever resources they may have to hand, which could be knife, car, firearm, big stick with a nail in it, etc. Is the result not the same, kill as many people as possible. Are you saying the people that murdered people on the underground and flew aircraft into the twin towers were not organised, I am not sure what you are trying to say, are you saying they are more or less dangerous that other terrorists. ? How they are recruited and their motives is irrelevant. I believe they were carrying a pistol (murderers of Lee Rigby) but did not fire it, Is there any information on that, was it stolen from a firearms owner. Or did they manage to get their hands on a firearm without applying for a FAC, stealing it from a firearms owner or gun club, things that the police seem to be focusing on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Is the result not the same, kill as many people as possible. Are you saying the people that murdered people on the underground and flew aircraft into the twin towers were not organised, I am not sure what you are trying to say, are you saying they are more or less dangerous that other terrorists. ? How they are recruited and their motives is irrelevant. The 9/11 and 7/7 attacks were very organised, but the threat has moved on and is now presenting a very different profile. How they are recruited and their motives are absolutely relevant, if they were recruited via known groups then gathering information is much easier, if they are recruited via an anonymous medium then it is significantly harder to identify individuals. Their motives is also very relevant as in many of the more recognised insurrectionary groups people join for the acceptance of their peers who share the same beliefs, it is a very well recognised psychological motivation for people who share a particular belief to gather in like minded groups. That's why you pro carry believers group together in threads to all support each other. In the case of theological causes they believe their acceptance is coming from the particular icon they are venerating, so for the Islamist radicals they believe that Allah will reward them, they couldn't give a hoot about what other people think, it is done in full view of their omnipotent being so they don't need to join clubs, that is what the propaganda tells them. All of that leads to a completely different behaviour, yes the ultimate motive may be to kill someone or many people, but it is way more complex when you consider how we have to identify these people and attempt to contain the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 I will answer the last question myself. The killers of Drummer Lee Rigby used a 90-year-old Dutch revolver to threaten the police and keep the public away after they had butchered the soldier in a London street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69chris Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 hmmmmmm, i wonder if the end result would have been the same if we (the public) were also allowed tocarry concealed weapons like the baddies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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