Muzzle loaders wildfowling loads

[Farma Geddon]

I can see that giving higher pressures with steel , yes.

Surely then a compression unit would also be similar to lead pellets being crushed under ignition

[Underdog]

Not necessarily.

The differential between the lower pellets and the upper ones whilst increasing pressure (possibly) on the wadding also allows for more time for the crimp to release, so possibly the rising pressure is relieved this way.

 

A steel load is stonewalled until the crimp let's go.

A steel cartridge may act closer in likeness to a metallic cartridge and bullet.

 

In a muzzleloader I can not see it having the same effect.

In fact, any recovered pellets from game shot with my front loaders shows very little deformation compared to most nitro cartridge pellets.

 

U. 😀

[TONY R]

The harder the shot , the less it deforms on setback and the less energy it uses up and the more pressure it creates.

It must be complicated though , because Hevi Shot appears to create less pressures than steel shot .

For what it is worth ,I think steel shot creates more of a bung , expands sideways , increasing press

Steel is hard by roughly 50% over pure copper, steel shot all things being as equal as you can get things , basicaly shot load and velocity being about the closest you can practicaly get creates more pressure than copper or lead.

Now my take on heavy shot TSS etc is sure its hard harder than steel in many types. and the density reduced volume works to reduce pressure smaller or far fewer pellets less movement in the wad colum cancel out the hardness somewhat.

 

Now muzzleloaders and steel to get back on track here, i loaded volume of steel not weight in the eight, this toy 8ga is a 5dram gun to 2oz of lead i saw no issues here on pressure the way it was loaded with steel. but did notice pyrodex rs was faster than black propper and that was any type of black. i did think about trying triple 7 in place of the rs anyone used 777 in any muzzleloaders just out of intrest/

[FatFreddysCat]

Shot type hardness and density for info

 

 

 

 

[Underdog]

Steel is hard by roughly 50% over pure copper, steel shot all things being as equal as you can get things , basicaly shot load and velocity being about the closest you can practicaly get creates more pressure than copper or lead.

Now my take on heavy shot TSS etc is sure its hard harder than steel in many types. and the density reduced volume works to reduce pressure smaller or far fewer pellets less movement in the wad colum cancel out the hardness somewhat.

 

Now muzzleloaders and steel to get back on track here, i loaded volume of steel not weight in the eight, this toy 8ga is a 5dram gun to 2oz of lead i saw no issues here on pressure the way it was loaded with steel. but did notice pyrodex rs was faster than black propper and that was any type of black. i did think about trying triple 7 in place of the rs anyone used 777 in any muzzleloaders just out of intrest/

Where is your proof that all things being equal as poss a load of steel will create more pressure?

 

U.

[Feltwad]

Steel shot in an original muzzle loading gun do not mix this also applys to plastic wads ,it is the first thing too bulge or ripple a barrel, I have seen in my 67 years of shooting muzzle loaders many damascus barrels ruined this way

Feltwad

[Underdog]

Steel shot in an original muzzle loading gun do not mix this also applys to plastic wads ,it is the first thing too bulge or ripple a barrel, I have seen in my 67 years of shooting muzzle loaders many damascus barrels ruined this way

Feltwad

Again, where is the evidence?

 

Plastic wads used without a fire wall in muzzleloaders melt. They leave an awful crusty mess.

Loading following shots gets harder and harder.

That can result in a cavitated load.

There is plenty evidence of damaged muzzleloaders from cavitated loads!

And not with steel!

 

I am not pitching steel shot.

However just a gent saying that for over 60 years he has seen many a gun ruined by steel shot does not make him an authority, he simply may of observed things being done poorly!

 

I have seen loads of car accidents when people let people drive them!

Many a car has been ruined because people got in them! 😕

[Farma Geddon]

What velocities are we talking about with steel in a muzzle loader ?

[Feltwad]

Where is the evidence ?

 

Quite simple Damascus steel barrels are softer than steel shot you can whittle a damascus barrel with a knife and that what happens to the bore of the barrel with constant use of steel shot

Feltwad

[TONY R]

Farma speed in the zoli 8ga with the pyrodex rs powder clocks in at around the 1100 1150 area fps at 10 foot .so nothing spectacular on range with steel fs or ts kind of similar to the old winchester smooth case drylock 10s of 10 or so years ago remember them, so as i said afore about 40 yards esspecialy on geese.

steel is not ideal in a muzzle loader down to its low mass and hardness, but if you load it in a protective wad as you obviously must do in any gun, its ok its safe and its effective within its range again like it is in any gun.

Now as underdog righty points out the plasswads do present a potential problem with fowling bores. so lubing the bore and the right wads in my case with this 8 bore a multi metal 10wad expanded as the shot cup and very important here PYRODEX RS ...NOT BLACK!!!.This keeps things easier to manage, fastest way of cleaning up any plaswad fowling crud is without any doubt cellulose thinners it eats it instantly.

One other point here, i am talking a few shots through this gun per fowling trip not quite sure if you could shoot this set up at lets say a big clay comp or the battle of rourkes drift Zulu which just bhappens to be on the tv at this very moment

Copper looks a lot softer than i thought it was in that chart above, and with a bit more density has to be a decent cheap non tox substitute for lead and best of all more traditional loading methods rathewr than all the improvisation associated with steel in muzzleloaders.

[FatFreddysCat]

Farma speed in the zoli 8ga with the pyrodex rs powder clocks in at around the 1100 1150 area fps at 10 foot .so nothing spectacular on range with steel fs or ts kind of similar to the old winchester smooth case drylock 10s of 10 or so years ago remember them, so as i said afore about 40 yards esspecialy on geese.

steel is not ideal in a muzzle loader down to its low mass and hardness, but if you load it in a protective wad as you obviously must do in any gun, its ok its safe and its effective within its range again like it is in any gun.

Now as underdog righty points out the plasswads do present a potential problem with fowling bores. so lubing the bore and the right wads in my case with this 8 bore a multi metal 10wad expanded as the shot cup and very important here PYRODEX RS ...NOT BLACK!!!.This keeps things easier to manage, fastest way of cleaning up any plaswad fowling crud is without any doubt cellulose thinners it eats it instantly.

One other point here, i am talking a few shots through this gun per fowling trip not quite sure if you could shoot this set up at lets say a big clay comp or the battle of rourkes drift Zulu which just bhappens to be on the tv at this very moment

Copper looks a lot softer than i thought it was in that chart above, and with a bit more density has to be a decent cheap non tox substitute for lead and best of all more traditional loading methods rathewr than all the improvisation associated with steel in muzzleloaders.

 

 

I sold my big muzzle loaders (a 4 and a 7) when the lead ban came in as I didn't want to chance them with steel and didn't think they'd take the pressure. Wish I'd kept them now as i think they'd have been fine with copper. I'm using No.3 copper in a 1896 breech loading damascus barreled 10 with good effect, 1 1/2 oz in a BPI TPS wad gives clean kills out to 50yds.

[Farma Geddon]

Farma speed in the zoli 8ga with the pyrodex rs powder clocks in at around the 1100 1150 area fps at 10 foot .so nothing spectacular on range with steel fs or ts kind of similar to the old winchester smooth case drylock 10s of 10 or so years ago remember them, so as i said afore about 40 yards esspecialy on geese.

steel is not ideal in a muzzle loader down to its low mass and hardness, but if you load it in a protective wad as you obviously must do in any gun, its ok its safe and its effective within its range again like it is in any gun.

Now as underdog righty points out the plasswads do present a potential problem with fowling bores. so lubing the bore and the right wads in my case with this 8 bore a multi metal 10wad expanded as the shot cup and very important here PYRODEX RS ...NOT BLACK!!!.This keeps things easier to manage, fastest way of cleaning up any plaswad fowling crud is without any doubt cellulose thinners it eats it instantly.

One other point here, i am talking a few shots through this gun per fowling trip not quite sure if you could shoot this set up at lets say a big clay comp or the battle of rourkes drift Zulu which just bhappens to be on the tv at this very moment

Copper looks a lot softer than i thought it was in that chart above, and with a bit more density has to be a decent cheap non tox substitute for lead and best of all more traditional loading methods rathewr than all the improvisation associated with steel in muzzleloaders.

I use a buffered 4.8mm steel load in the twelve and it is 1250 fps .

It patterns tightly and kills out to a comfortable 60 yards on pinks.

 

Therefore , I wonder whether your load of Ts'or Fs' lacks pattern rather than penetration , given that it does 40 yards ?

Have you tried card wads in your 8 ?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Farma Geddon

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

Thank you for all the very informative replies to my post, although I must admit that I do not fully understand some of the technicalities involved.

 

I want to keep things as simple as possible, and as far as I can see this means using either bismuth or copper shot. If I were to do this would it be OK to 'load' as normal - i.e. simply use the normal wadding system procedures applicable to Damascus barrelled muzzle loaders? I intend to use black powder, and assume that bismuth or copper shot will produce any noticeable barrel wear. I would have thought that I would not fire more than 100 shots in any season.

 

Does anyone have any sources for bismuth or copper shot - I assume that the powder:shot volume ratio will be approx. the same as per when using lead shot?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Dead-Eyed Duck

[FatFreddysCat]

I get my copper shot from Siarm in Italy(link below). Including tax and shipping it comes to £61 for 2.5kg. Takes 7 to 10 days to arrive.

Note. The No.3 is 3.5mm so actually a UK No.2. 136 pellets to the oz. each pellet weighs 0.2gm. Lead no.4 pellet is 0.214gm, No.5 is 0.17gm so approx equivalent to lead No.4 1/2.

 

http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_191&osCsid=f0b72212cd5a41022b5d36d6634b440c

[Underdog]

Where is the evidence ?

 

Quite simple Damascus steel barrels are softer than steel shot you can whittle a damascus barrel with a knife and that what happens to the bore of the barrel with constant use of steel shot

Feltwad

That is not evidence. A suggestion!

A suggestion someone did not separate the steel shot from the bore.

 

The easiest way to clean lead or plastic fouling from a muzzleloader is boiling water.

 

The easiest way to stop plastic fouling in a muzzleloader is to put a wet fibre or part of a wet fibre wad down first, a firewall.

 

If I use steel a card wrap works.

 

U.

[Feltwad]

That is not evidence. A suggestion!

A suggestion someone did not separate the steel shot from the bore.

 

The easiest way to clean lead or plastic fouling from a muzzleloader is boiling water.

 

The easiest way to stop plastic fouling in a muzzleloader is to put a wet fibre or part of a wet fibre wad down first, a firewall.

 

If I use steel a card wrap works.

 

Well I am not getting into an argument on this but I know what I am talking about I have worked on Damascus barrels for many decades .

Feltwad

[Underdog]

Absolutely, no arguing needed at all.

Just asked for some evidence, that was all 😀

[TONY R]

I get my copper shot from Siarm in Italy(link below). Including tax and shipping it comes to £61 for 2.5kg. Takes 7 to 10 days to arrive.

Note. The No.3 is 3.5mm so actually a UK No.2. 136 pellets to the oz. each pellet weighs 0.2gm. Lead no.4 pellet is 0.214gm, No.5 is 0.17gm so approx equivalent to lead No.4 1/2.

 

http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_191&osCsid=f0b72212cd5a41022b5d36d6634b440c

When did you buy this copper? Re ason i ask is i got some about a couple of months back, and it was £53 delivered for the 3s english 2s as you say.

One other point on the weight per pellet i worked it out weighing 437.5 grain loads on my old rcbs ballance scales and doing the same with ex 1991 winchester super xx number 4 american officaly uk 3s if i had remembered it right the copper had only 7 more pellets so the winchester shot must have been a bit smaller than they said it was, i know i recorded the 1oz count on this shot accuratly but back then i never measured it.

Edited December 29, 2015 by TONY R

[TONY R]

I use a buffered 4.8mm steel load in the twelve and it is 1250 fps .

It patterns tightly and kills out to a comfortable 60 yards on pinks.

 

Therefore , I wonder whether your load of Ts'or Fs' lacks pattern rather than penetration , given that it does 40 yards ?

Have you tried card wads in your 8 ?

The speed is only part of it, no choke as such so its all a bit accademic much over 40 yards. If i wanted to try and squese a yard or two more out of this toy which is bassicaly what it is, i would drop to BBB or even BB to help fill out the vertualy cylinder pattern a bit more.

Also remember 100 or so fps at 10foot means probably around 50 to 70 FPS slower down range compared to the 12 load you mention, Now that may not sound a lot on paper but i am sure you know you need it up there at the prickly end

[FatFreddysCat]

When did you buy this copper? Re ason i ask is i got some about a couple of months back, and it was £53 delivered for the 3s english 2s as you say.

One other point on the weight per pellet i worked it out weighing 437.5 grain loads on my old rcbs ballance scales and doing the same with ex 1991 winchester super xx number 4 american officaly uk 3s if i had remembered it right the copper had only 7 more pellets so the winchester shot must have been a bit smaller than they said it was, i know i recorded the 1oz count on this shot accuratly but back then i never measured it.

Got my last delivery from Siarm just before Christmas, see copy of invoice below.

I weighed an oz and counted the pellets as 136/oz for copper. Just weighed and counted an oz of No 4 (UK No.3, 3.25mm) steel and I get 192/oz and 154/oz for No.3 (UK No.2,3.5mm ) steel. If you had more pellets per oz for copper you may have been counting steel No.2 (UK No.1, 3.75mm) which is 130/oz.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a global standardized shot size or they just used mm instead.

[motty]

£60 plus does not seem worth it for 2.5kg of copper shot.

[Farma Geddon]

£60 plus does not seem worth it for 2.5kg of copper shot.

Not if you already shoot steel shot. Something like HW 13 is a bit more money but hugely effective.

[TONY R]

Got my last delivery from Siarm just before Christmas, see copy of invoice below.

I weighed an oz and counted the pellets as 136/oz for copper. Just weighed and counted an oz of No 4 (UK No.3, 3.25mm) steel and I get 192/oz and 154/oz for No.3 (UK No.2,3.5mm ) steel. If you had more pellets per oz for copper you may have been counting steel No.2 (UK No.1, 3.75mm) which is 130/oz.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a global standardized shot size or they just used mm instead.

Thats shot up in price then this last few weeks then, bit dissapointing.

the old winchester no4s i mentioned was lead shot count from a cartridge years ago.

[TONY R]

£60 plus does not seem worth it for 2.5kg of copper shot.

Ithink if you are for example needing a cheap non tox to use in a old game gun for a few ducks after the shoot and dont fancy shooting steel through the gun, copper offers you an option cheaper than bismuth or similar.

Copper can be loaded in felt wads if you want with no problems which some may want or need to do, and its still tough enough to drive at steel velocity , which when you take the slight increase in spacific gravity offers a potential advantage .

Now if this slight gain is practical of worthwile is up to the individual, Me personaly i like copper, its here and i went to a lot of trouble making it work, and dont regret any of this and would do it again.

Copper is not the next big thing but its another option and it as some aspects which steel can not match, and other shot types will be more expensive.