Thoughts on HW13~HW 18 ~TSS Is it time for change.?

[TONY R]

These shot types are without question Effective on Wildfowl, they vary in performance not just density and their cost likewise.

With the expenditure involved they are never going to become main stream, their metalurgical compsition is such that they will never be cheap enough to be generaly accepted steel has this with Pure copper and Bismuth snapping at its heels.

So acepting the obvious regarding The heavier shot types niche market, i got to thinking is it time for change, a change of approach to using these expensive shot types to offer a more practical sized cartridge that not only offers decent enough bore size to throw good patterns at longer ranges, and yet is physicaly small enough to load without the constant faffing around with fillers and packers to looks internal volume in the case.

Which is not an insumountable issue but it is an anoying consideration with TSS especialy more tha HW13. Add to this aspect the fact smaller shot sizes are employed in typical loads compared to anything previously employed in Wildfowling, are the bigger bore sizes as significant when using HW shot types as lead or steel?

With TSS its Verging on silly i mean 3 oz of 7s gives you lead BB penatration with a pellet count to die for but is it super efficiencey or verging on mamoth overkill?

HW 13 is the above but to a lesser extent.

So having outlined a few points for the unanitiated is it perhaps time to retink the tools of our trade so to speak when using this stuff, Obvious choice is the 20 bore with HW13 or TSS, its common its got a 3 inch chambering to give big payloads should you chose to take that option.

Now one aspect of HW few chose to use is Velocity, its dense is velocity needed well of course its not an essential pre requisite to using these HW shot types, but its one more option you can use to advantage in lighter cheaper to load payloads of smaller shot like say TSS 9s yet still have downrange penatration you need.

The bore size of the 20 gets in the way of velocity the true high velocity 1 oz steel load is a beast of mythology and the 20 bore with HW shot although super efficient could do better.

!2 bore like tens are ppacker and filler wad intensive to load, bore size on the 12 and running 65 or 7mm hulls is a good way and works pretty good with HW13 to be fair, but itsill a big volume hull for TSS shot.

Now the recent suden rise in popularity of the 16 bore is i feel timely and offers a fantastic platform, for these HW shot types, its performance as always been very close to 12 bore, both in bore size for patterning and even payloads are appropriate in all but true magnum loads, but as a gam e gun general shotgun pigeons etc, perfprmance here is near identical in fact barely decernable to most users.

Its bigger chamber volume gives room enough for heavy loads with the minimum if any packing and spacing, and its bore size offers a potential advantage over the 20 bore.

Add to this The powder enigma that is LIL gun and you are well set for a close to perfect Hw wildfowling Gun.

Now this is the crux of the matter now, At what point does loosing payload loosing volume, get to a point where any potential performance enhancemet you may have had becomes just a very expensive steel shot contender .

HW shot is fantastic it offers performance advantages that is not in question, Is it time for a change in thinking with it?

To say a smaller bored smaller case volume gun, the clever money seems to think so, i know more using 20s and Hw this season than i have seen before, And not just old aquaintances some fellow forum members are treading this path too to apparently good effect.

I have not used any other gun so far this season other than a 20 bore auto.

Ok thats set to change but is it out of nessesaty or is ot pure ecconomy of use? Well i think the latter.

One other aspect with TSS i have thought about but never been rich enough to fully explore is duplexing, with Big steel, use sat T steel with 6 TSS HW18 same sort of performance and the smaller 6s helping with the woefully low pellet count, yet the steel Ts adding the large wound chanel potential only big steel gives.

Hevi shot hevi metal seems to be contraversial yet popular by those that use it, its the same basic principle ive outlined above.

Is itr time for change?

I dont have the answer i view these HW shot types with mixed emotions, on the one hand it works, and in the other hand Do i need it Steel still works.

And that ever present dampener when using it ....Money is easy to ignore a flipantly dismisede as acceptable, but when the containers giving up the last pellets of your Heavy stuff, its that wake up call, your going to be spending a tidy sum of money soon.

Maybe in just tight i dont know.

[Guest cookoff013]

what you are discussing is a slight moot, as whats in the shell. its whats happening at the pattern plate and 40 yards is the key.

whereas you are correct about the tss #9 being like lead 1s. at 1400fps this is even more exacerbated being the equivalent to BB.

the advantage of tss, is what energy it is given, it holds on to it way more than lead.

if you shoot #9tss, you have to get it at 700fps or so to be an equivalent lead BB load at 1400fps (or thereabouts, in energy retention).

 

so the problems with tss are, the lack of wads set up for TSS. this will never change. i thought about buffering tss18 loads with steel shot, so duplexing the things.

with hw13 it worked out 50/50 volume, 21grams hw13, and 10grams steel. (total weight and volume equivalent , 36g lead volume, etc. 24g steel rated wads. )

 

the unfortunate thing is, the mentality of the shotsizes, like steel it causes confusion.

steel shot is sized the same way as lead. the thing thats different is the weight (thats because the density). so going up 1 steel shotsize is like the equivalent of going up 1/2 a shotsize and expecting a big difference.

which it wont.

tss will do the same, #9 and #8 would be like going from a lead 2 to BB or so.

 

if i could get hold of the stuff i wouldnt mind giving it a whirl.

 

what i thought about doing is a sabot style load like the original, thats a 20gauge nontoxic wad in a 12gauge nontoxic wad. i`ve the original tss publication.

due to the density, the shotcount would be abismal, unless small shot is used.

 

density diff.

11g / 18g = lead shot is 0.611 the density, so a 42g load of Tss is the same volume of 25.6 grams of lead.

 

it goes both ways..

 

18/11 =1.63 so 42g volume of lead can hold 69grams of shot.

 

this also can be used to calculate shot per ounce....

 

just a guess, 1oz of #9 is 585 pellets.... or 357 pellets of tss18 in 1oz.. its accurate to about 2 pellets.. more if the ratio is calculated to 4 decimal places etc..

[Guest cookoff013]

thought about this wad,

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_24_33_59&products_id=128

stuffed in this wad..

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_24_31_36&products_id=124

 

but that means..

25g steel wad can hold

18/7.8

18/11

58 grams of TSS.

 

thats calculated using the ratio of 36g lead and 25g steel.

[TONY R]

Thats the way to do tens with a 16 wad inside, its loosing space with TSS lots of space wasted, i thought about lead 1 oz cushon wads under Typical bucket wads like a trimmed TPS wad in ten.

Never seen the Turkey hunters do this though, can you see a reason why not?

I know too soft a felt spacer bumps pressures up pretty bad, i try use hard nitro cards if i can and only one or two max corks. soft squishy felts are a no no in my opinion.

All this loosing space is it time for the 16? Could it be its true destiney in life.

[Guest cookoff013]

nah,

 

but unless i see actual test data that sudgests felt squshy causes pressure spikes.....

 

i keep on hearing that, pressure spikes.....

 

theres variation then theres variation...

[TONY R]

nah,

 

but unless i see actual test data that sudgests felt squshy causes pressure spikes.....

 

i keep on hearing that, pressure spikes.....

 

theres variation then theres variation...

My lead crusher shows soft felts under Hw loads causes pressure spikes i dont need a read out to tell me its happening i never ignore what that shows me.

Never run cushon plaswads cut off under a shortened bucket wad though, so perhaps i should run a couple for tests.

[Guest cookoff013]

That's why I love fast powders. Burns up clean. Gives up all the energy it can

[TONY R]

That's why I love fast powders. Burns up clean. Gives up all the energy it can

Now that we agree on, Fast is good Another thingneeds pointing out while we are on i think Longshot, a powder ivehither too often shyed away from has real promise with this HW.

[motty]

What is that I smell?

[Guest cookoff013]

motty...

 

i`ve been thinking of a way to work out the efficiency of a cartridge. its kind of a moot point due to the varied elements.

 

so i did alittle thinking. how could i compare several different cartridges or even screen a powder to get the right answers. there are multiple issues here.

 

first, i need to find a way of calculating the energy produced, thats kind of easy. thats the ftlbs equation... so right off the bat thats the first hard fast rule. the cartridge that creates the most ftlbs of energy is undoubtedly the most powerful.

say i have a test load with varying amounts of powder, say 18 grains to 23 grains. i will always see the highest powder charge give up the most energy and as a consequence should be representative in that dataset. but thats not efficiency.

thats just pure power. there is very little argument from that point of view. but how could i calculate efficiency...

well, i`d need to test a bunch of powder charges and a bunch of payloads. thats easy. but how can i turn that load data into an efficiency parameter / criteria. one way would be to back cross the ftlbs with the grain powder charge...

that would give me the ftlbs per grain of powder. the bigger the number the more efficient the shell. i cant see that not being representative.

but that assays must be run sequntially, +1 -+2 grains of powder...

the second part would be to try and work out the best payload per powder.

this can be done in the same way. but the single powder charge must be efficient, then to switch out the payloads.... and test.

 

this is partially right, and partially wrong. because the powder charge should be efficient, at some junction in all this the highest ftlbs and the highest efficiency, and the payload that has the highest ftlbs / grain should shine through.

however all this is just a bean counting excercise, where efficiency matters....

 

after all this, the shell could still pattern like rubbish.

 

i ran through some loads, interesting results... most powders really kick out energy in the higher payloads, and are more efficient in doing so.

[Continental Shooter]

Tony, out of curiosity, what felt spacing are you using and what's the height?

 

generally speaking isn't the felt that causes the spike is the height at which the pellets column sits that is causing it in relation to the powder used.

 

So, a faster burning powder with a load sitting low will naturally spike in pressure; whilst the same load with a slower burning powder will return less pressure; likewise increasing the height will reduce the pressure.

 

Another issue might be in relation to the powder-primer combo: moving from CX50 to CX2000 gives you an increase in 100 bar straight off the packet; using in in a low sitting column can give you well over 200

 

In my inexperienced view (with non tox), is the load and the heavier pellets which are causing the pressure to spike, not necessarily the felt.

 

But i am intersted in your opinion guys as i'll soon have to move to non tox ... and as Cook knows, i only use 20ga ...so, might help knowing how to load these pellets.

[Guest cookoff013]

Tony, out of curiosity, what felt spacing are you using and what's the height?

 

generally speaking isn't the felt that causes the spike is the height at which the pellets column sits that is causing it in relation to the powder used.

 

So, a faster burning powder with a load sitting low will naturally spike in pressure; whilst the same load with a slower burning powder will return less pressure; likewise increasing the height will reduce the pressure.

 

Another issue might be in relation to the powder-primer combo: moving from CX50 to CX2000 gives you an increase in 100 bar straight off the packet; using in in a low sitting column can give you well over 200

 

In my inexperienced view (with non tox), is the load and the heavier pellets which are causing the pressure to spike, not necessarily the felt.

 

But i am intersted in your opinion guys as i'll soon have to move to non tox ... and as Cook knows, i only use 20ga ...so, might help knowing how to load these pellets.

 

20gauge would be great for super dense nontox. i`ve got the powershot about to be tested (before xmas) but its in 12. in the space i can put 36g lead would easily do 42g of powershot.

i never shot 20gauge much. but it is one efficient gauge. i think its due to the 800bar limit, and the natural sizing for 1oz lead.

wheras 28 gauge ihas too limited a component base.

[Continental Shooter]

well...you know what i think about the max pressure on certain types of cartridges....

 

I can load 36-38 gr lead with SP3 & .410 (think Lil will be the same) so, loading the same with non tox would have been a dream

 

Now, with the advent of HWand TSS this seem possible and effective.

 

My concern from a novice perspective is the hardness of the pellets: one of the advantages of lead is that it's quite soft and deforms more on the barrel (helping the spread) as well as on impact effectively helping better transfer the residual energy. Reading around it seems these pellets are harder and less deformable; yes they might hold the pattern best but if the shot is not centred and only few pellets hit the quarry (especially at short distance) the might just past through without hitting an bone or organ effectively wounding the quarry.

 

Ok the higher pellets count and size could help reducing these cases but i am more concerned about spread now

 

thoughts?

[motty]

well...you know what i think about the max pressure on certain types of cartridges....

 

I can load 36-38 gr lead with SP3 & .410 (think Lil will be the same) so, loading the same with non tox would have been a dream

 

Now, with the advent of HWand TSS this seem possible and effective.

 

My concern from a novice perspective is the hardness of the pellets: one of the advantages of lead is that it's quite soft and deforms more on the barrel (helping the spread) as well as on impact effectively helping better transfer the residual energy. Reading around it seems these pellets are harder and less deformable; yes they might hold the pattern best but if the shot is not centred and only few pellets hit the quarry (especially at short distance) the might just past through without hitting an bone or organ effectively wounding the quarry.

 

Ok the higher pellets count and size could help reducing these cases but i am more concerned about spread now

 

thoughts?

I thought that this didn't really apply to lead shot - only bullets.

I would also say that hard shot penetrates far better than lead shot. That has to be a good thing.

[Continental Shooter]

Motty,

 

That applies to all instances where forces transfer from a vehicle to a recipient: the bullet is exactly the same as a pellet (just a little bigger )

 

i am not disputing penetration, but killing happens by trauma (mostly) which is what i am afraid harder pellets will not perform. It's documented that penetration only, especially where no vital organs are hit, it's not sufficient in absence of a severe trauma.

 

Also, it must have happened to you too to hit a pigeon or a geese and see it flying for yards before dropping stone dead.

 

This is known issue where pellets with too much energy pass through the body so fast that the nerves perceive the hit but not the pain triggering adrenaline rush which helps the quarry flying for few more seconds before dropping...

 

As i said, i am no expert on the non-tox so, that might not be the case, but the physics of the material would suggest so....

[motty]

I don't buy that at all. You're saying a lead pellet will deform upon hitting a goose's heart, for example?

[6.5x55SE]

I don't buy that at all. You're saying a lead pellet will deform upon hitting a goose's heart, for example?

Lead will start to deform as soon as it hits Feathers But as with most things in life it is NOT 100%.

Speed also plays a big part of helping Lead to deform.

As you know i shoot a lot of Deer and every now and again i get a Projectile pencil through WHY ain't got a clue.

[motty]

Lead can't be effective if it starts to deform straight away. It wouldn't then be able to penetrate. I believe bullets are very different. They are designed to mushroom.

[6.5x55SE]

That's why you need speed to push deformed shot/Projectile through resistance eg feathers skin etc bigger would channels in most cases cause quicker death .

I personally now use Non Toxic ( copper) Projectile for my Deer Stalking for me kills superb.

Just the same as i use Steel Shot 99.9% of the time for all wildfowling 12ga or 20ga.

So people think Steel shot is Poo only good to 30yrd.

Personally what ever calibre Choke type of Non Toxic shot anybody uses and it suits there needs that's all that matters as long as they are not leaving more wounded quarry than Dead 👍

[motty]

I'm pretty sure that when I have retrieved lead pellets from dead birds in the past, there has been very little deformation to speak of - certainly not enough to create any great 'traumas'.

If a hard pellet goes straight through the heart of my quarry and exits the animal, that is job done as far as I am concerned.

[muncher]

What needs to occur,is transfer of energy ,a pellet going straight through hasnt imparted all its kinetic force into the quarry ,which equates to massive trauma if that makes sense .

[6.5x55SE]

What needs to occur,is transfer of energy ,a pellet going straight through hasnt imparted all its kinetic force into the quarry ,which equates to massive trauma if that makes sense .

👍👍

[motty]

A pellet that passes through quarry just means it has more energy than one that stayed inside - unless of course it has been obstructed by bone etc.

[Continental Shooter]

when a shell isn't balanced and there is too much speed, pressure or the gases escape from the seal/felt the pellets will start to deform in hte barrel and produce a wider spread at short distance but that translate to a very poor pattern at 30yds

 

as mentioned, the pellets start to deform on impact with the feathers, you will notice one side of the pellet is flatter; phisically that area transmit more energy to the quarry that the point of the sphere that would touch it if it wasn't deforming .... that is phisycs so, i wouldn't think is debatable...

 

Obviously if a penetrating pellets hit one of the vital organs you achieve an instant kil, but most kills are achieved through cardiac and neurological arrest which is the results of the trauma caused.

 

Also, you will notice that the retrieved pellets are superficial amd mostly found in the muscles area, in the skin or fat;when flattened, 5-6 pellets will guarantee a clean kill even if not penetrating; had these been rounded, their lethal power would be diminished by comparison and you would need more pellets (or one of the pellets to hit an organ) to achieve the same kill

 

Anywya, that is my theory based on the phisycs of it; i am looking for a logical expalanation as to why this wouldn't happen;

[motty]

Take this what way you will, but this is an exert from a piece I have been reading;

 

Overview:
Steel shot has proven to us that when the conversion is made right, that it is more than acceptable for field hunting use out to and beyond 40 yards. Tom Roster, working in conjunction with the Cooperative Nontoxic Shot Education Program (CONSEP) has put together a database on the performance of lead shot vs. steel shot. In this study is an X-ray analysis of over 16,000 ducks and geese. A fact revealed by this study was that a steel pellet with an energy level equivalent to that of a lead pellet, provides 5% to 10% deeper penetration, thus increasing shotshell lethality on wild game.