training to turn on either shoulder

[ips]

This is something I have not trained or even considered until now but I do see the benefit and reason. How do you train it though.

 

Just to be clear I am talking about sending a dog back for a retrieve turning on its right or its left shoulder.

[lee-kinsman]

It's exactly the same as training the go back apart from a slight right and left bias.

 

Teaching go back on the left shoulder.

 

Sit your dog up and place the marked retrieve approx 5yards behind it and one yard out to the right so that the dog is aware that the most efficient way would be to turn on its left. The dog should know the dummy is there. Take a few steps away from your dog, raise your right hand and command get back. Your dog should turn on its left shoulder. If the dog does struggle keep the distance between dog and dummy the same but bring the dummy further to the right.

Repeat this exercise with a left hand bias to train turning on its right.

Hope that makes sense. If not I'll make a video but Philippa Williams does s good demo on this at crufts if you search on YouTube.

Edited June 11, 2017 by lee-kinsman

[ips]

Thanks lee yes it makes sense. I like phiipa in fact I have just watched her demo at myerscough college country fare 👍

 

That is why I suddenly have an interest in training it. Although she demo'd it she didn't explain how to achieve it. I will have a go and report back 👍

 

Incidentally does putting the dummy out to the side slightly not encourage the dog to "not go back straight" presumably you start lengthening the retrieve and bringing the dummy back into line.

 

Ps

That's given you a good idea for your next video, has it not 😉

 

PPS

I mentioned once before that eze will stand and turn to mark a dummy thrown over her. I haven't been able to stop this so I live with it. So, would it work ok to turn her away from the mark and re- sit her facing me, that is doo able ??

Edited June 11, 2017 by ips

[lee-kinsman]

Thanks lee yes it makes sense. I like phiipa in fact I have just watched her demo at myerscough college country fare 👍

 

That is why I suddenly have an interest in training it. Although she demo'd it she didn't explain how to achieve it. I will have a go and report back 👍

 

Incidentally does putting the dummy out to the side slightly not encourage the dog to "not go back straight" presumably you start lengthening the retrieve and bringing the dummy back into line.

 

Ps

That's given you a good idea for your next video, has it not 😉

 

PPS

I mentioned once before that eze will stand and turn to mark a dummy thrown over her. I haven't been able to stop this so I live with it. So, would it work ok to turn her away from the mark and re- sit her facing me, that is doo able ??

I'll be honest I don't train it myself with retrievers but I think it's essential for spaniels that work under the gun. Yes it's given me an idea for my next video haha.

 

The short distance is just to build the association.

 

Yes it can contradict running back in a straight line but used in the correct circumstances it can save a lot of handling.

[ips]

Thanks lee, I shall have a go this evening and report back. I have never ever used my left hand for a back so this could all go very wrong 😁

Also I have never paid any attention to which shoulder she naturally turns on, in indeed she does favour a particular side.

Edited June 11, 2017 by ips

[ips]

Well not sure if that was good luck or good management. 😁

 

Thought I would just see what happened first so chucked dummy over her head, she turned as epected, I turned her away from it and back to me and sat her up again. Sent her with right hand but kind of lent my body as well. She turned on her left shoulder, retrieved and delivered with a sat present. Same again but this time with my left hand which I have never ever done before. The little love only went and turned on her right shoulder 😁 did another right and another left. Cant believe it propper chuffed, but it may have been a fluke of course

[scotslad]

Well done ips.

 

Must admit i can'r reallty see a need for it, well not for working dogs atleast mibee different at the very top end of FT's

 

Is there a reason why ur training it now?.

 

1 thing i have started doing in recent years is to say left/right when i give my dogs directions so if they can't see me or its dark they hopefully go the right direction

[ips]

Thank you scotslad but I may have been a fluke 😁

 

I have never given it any consideration until today after I watched Phillipa Williams demo at a game fare. The reasons given by her was that there may be a distraction at one side of the dog such as birds so by sending the dog off a particular shoulder would avoid the dog being tempted to leave the retrieve. I cant see how I will ever use it in the real world as I only use her for beating and for walked up boundary type days but wanted to see if I could get it.

She is such a clever bitch she never stops amazing me with how quick she picks things up. Poor thing is wasted on me, she would be FTCH with an experienced handler. But she is stuck with me so we muddle along as best we can. 😁

 

Edit for spellin

Edited June 12, 2017 by ips

[motty]

Thank you scotslad but I may have been a fluke

 

I have never given it any consideration until today after I watched Phillips Williams demo at a game fare. The reasons given by her was that there may be a distraction at one side of the dog such as birds so by sending the dog off a particular shoulder would avoid the dog being tempted to leave the retrieve. I cant see how I will ever use it in the real world as I only use her for beating and for walked up boundary type days but wanted to see if I could get it.

She is such a clever bitch she never stops amazing me with how quick she picks things up. Poor thing is wasted on me, she would be FTCH with an experienced handler. But she is stuck with me so we middle along as best we can.

The same could probably be said about many, many dogs.

[ips]

I am sure you are right motty.

 

Just to clarify..

My only point was that as an inexperienced handler I accept that I wont get the best out of her, not saying that my bitch is any better than many other folks dogs. 😉

Edited June 12, 2017 by ips

[cracker]

Well done ips.

 

Must admit i can'r reallty see a need for it, well not for working dogs atleast mibee different at the very top end of FT's

 

Is there a reason why ur training it now?.

 

1 thing i have started doing in recent years is to say left/right when i give my dogs directions so if they can't see me or its dark they hopefully go the right direction

Yup, but cannae hurt for an honest working gundog to llearn to take a left or right turn.

 

ips, it's pretty foolproof when starting out if, with the dog seated directly in front of and facing you, you throw a dummy slightly over the right side of the dog's head (when you want it to take a left cast) or left side of the dog's head (when you want it to take a right cast). (Remember the dog's sitting opposite you, thus the opposite casts.)

 

For the left cast, as soon as you've thrown over the right side of the dog's head, and with the dog still focused on you, you step into the dog with your left leg whllst raising your left hand and saying "Back!" You are close enough to the dog that your exaggerated step will almost propel the dog back in the direction your left arm is sending it. Works equally well for both sides and the proximity to the dog is the "driving" factor. Later you can do same casts when the dog is seated facing you at greater and greater distance.

 

On the very top end of N. American field trials, we must have 50 different casts - left, right, verbal, silent, backs, overs, angles, two-hands, no-hands, one-step, no-step, etc. - whose precision determines how well you're able to compete in those trials. They work pretty well in the marsh or on the prairie, too - when you've got a bird getting away that dog might not have seen but that you or a shooting partner saw fall or glide down at 350-400 yards out.

 

MG

[ips]

Yup, but cannae hurt for an honest working gundog to llearn to take a left or right turn.

 

ips, it's pretty foolproof when starting out if, with the dog seated directly in front of and facing you, you throw a dummy slightly over the right side of the dog's head (when you want it to take a left cast) or left side of the dog's head (when you want it to take a right cast). (Remember the dog's sitting opposite you, thus the opposite casts.)

 

For the left cast, as soon as you've thrown over the right side of the dog's head, and with the dog still focused on you, you step into the dog with your left leg whllst raising your left hand and saying "Back!" You are close enough to the dog that your exaggerated step will almost propel the dog back in the direction your left arm is sending it. Works equally well for both sides and the proximity to the dog is the "driving" factor. Later you can do same casts when the dog is seated facing you at greater and greater distance.

 

On the very top end of N. American field trials, we must have 50 different casts - left, right, verbal, silent, backs, overs, angles, two-hands, no-hands, one-step, no-step, etc. - whose precision determines how well you're able to compete in those trials. They work pretty well in the marsh or on the prairie, too - when you've got a bird getting away that dog might not have seen but that you or a shooting partner saw fall or glide down at 350-400 yards out.

 

MG

Thanks for that, yep makes sense. U kind of leant my body the way I wanted her to turn which seamed o work (unless it was a fluke not tried since) but I see the step into her would probably have an even better effect. Will try tomorrow and report back.

Thanks again 👍

[scotslad]

To be fair cracker if u see he standard of most honest working gundogs in the UK wether they turn on the left or right shoulder is the lest of their problems believe me.

Most's recall and stop's are almost non existant.

 

While working my dogs they're is many things i've wished i've spent more time on, but really can't see the point in this at all.

Thing is i just train my dogs to suit me and the way i work them

 

If u can send it straight back, u just stop it and signal it left/right as needed, if birds at an angle either alter ur stance/position so it is a straight back or send it out on the line for a blind.

 

If u can reliably send ur dog in striaght lines and 90ish degrees, back/left/right/over in theory there is no area u can't get ur dog too esp if u alter ur starting position relatve to the bird, can't see how a dog running back at a slightly funny angle is going to help

To me its just an over complication with little no benefit, esp for working/amatuer handers.

[ips]

I see your point scotslad as I said at the beginning I just wanted to see f I could train it for my own curiosity / vanity and something to do for a change whilst training out of season. However from what I understand the theory is to be able to direct the dog to turn away from a possible distraction so theoretically it could be useful in the field .

Your right about the standard of working dogs, I was truly astonished when I first started beating at how untrained dogs were chucked in a wood at one end, shouted at (a lot) for the duration of the drive then an attempt to catch em at the other end 😁

[scotslad]

I think most walk 1 stand 1 shoots have at least 1 dog that will race forward as soon as the first shot is fired an either run about at guns feet for drive or worse still run back throu the wood ur driving puhing birds everywhere.

 

Surely if there was a distraction to 1 side if it is so close that turning a dog on a different direction is going to make a difference most dogs with a bit of drive (esp at distance) will be drawn to it anyway.

If ur really woried either sit the dog up for a few seconds to let it calm down or distraction go away or send ur dog the oppisate direction and dog leg it, may not look as tidy but in reality when working all that really matters is picking the bird..

 

Even 1 moor i go to has quite a few A panel lab judges go and none of there working dogs will do that as there really is no need (there comp dogs could thou) infact sometimes surprising even how rough some of there working picking up dogs can be considering how good/experienced they are as trainers

[ips]

I am sure your right scotslad, I am not experienced enough to question what you say. As I said it was just a new exercise I thought we could try, give her something different to think about. Just got home from early morning rabbit shooting will be in my feild most of the day so will try crackered suggestion after just for fun 👍

[scotslad]

To be fair i'm not saying i'm right because with dog training there usually is no rights and wrong's, all just personal preference.

Nowadays i just train practical stuff that will help me or dogs on a shoot day, i train mine to follow a torch to pick up, which is unusual but helps for flighting when ur tidying up

 

After i posted last night i did remember briefly training my dogs to do it years ago when they were tidier, but just couldn't see the point so i stopped.

Even in those days i was doing odd working tests (only an average standard so nothing fancy but got odd places/wins), but usually most dogs fail on not doing something very simple with the excitement of a shooting day/comp.

 

My philosphy now is get ur dogs to do the simple things well almost 100% of the time and ur dog will never let u down, if u can send/handle ur dog out 100-150m on a shoot day ur doing better than the vast vast majority of dogs. I go to plenty shoots where none/few of the dogs can be handled on any retrieve

It may seem a poor standard by FT expectations but seen plenty of FT dogs don't do that all the time either

[ips]

Well cracker your method works a treat 👍 she got it straightaway stepping into her seems to pull her in the direction you want. Still not sure if I will ever use it in the real world of a game day but its nice to have in your training tool box 😁