scotslad

So to sum up u seen a video of a hunt doing something perfectly legally behind closed doors which was illegally filmed. Must admit i'm still very surprised any huntsman would shoot a perfectly healthy hound at 5 or 6 most working dogs are just coming in to there prime at that age, just makes no sense unless some other issues ( health, stock chasing, fighting with other hounds) Ive seen hounds work well past 10 and u wouldn't have even known they were that old And the made u decide to sign a petition to strengthen hunting laws??? How exactly are they likely to do that? As it stands u can only hunt a fox with 1 couple of hounds, reduce that to 1 hound/dog? If thats the case that will have massive implications to anyone shooting foxes on rough days or end of season vermin drives. U've claimed numerous times that all hunts break the law all the time, so surely if they're already breaking the law there is very little point in changing it, surely wot's needed is the law thats already there being enforced. So why not sign a petition for that? But u'd think with all this secret filming and drones nowadays and all the hunt 'monitors' all this illegal acts would be filmed. Not like u can control where an illegally hunted fox runs All the clips u seem to get on hunt meet days tend to be very highly edited folk in balaclavas tresspassing on private ground and allegedly being abused by 'toffs' I don't think they get the ironry, turning up masked tresspassing how threating that can be to a horse and how dangerous it is for the rider, just as well they're never shouting abuse and making loud noises too, as cleverly edited out of the videos. Funny how these sabs want 1 law tightened which is in dispute about even being broken often, while openly and regularly breaking a host of other laws, strange world.

I know the gun pack i shot for for quite a few years as they run small numbers of hounds u got to know the individual hounds and the regulars would help as assitant whipers in, and esp in poor scenting conditions it was the older dogs who produced the goods and held on tricky scent when the younger 1's wouldn't. Again no idea there actual age but many were running as long as i can remember, old colonal must of been a fair old age well past 10 unless it was just a ghost as hounds don't live that long? Aye but signing petions like this u are trying to take away others choices/freedoms. Do u believe foxes should be controlled at all? Even as i believe the law stands down south ( and not massively clued up as shoot north of the wall, but 2 dogs i believe) shooting a fox on a rough day even on ur own is illegal if u have more than 2 dogs with u. How are u going to control foxes in more remote areas with large areas of whins ( gorse), blackthorn or massive forestry blocks if u cant use a dog to flush them? Even if everything u say is 100% true any more legislation can have a far reaching effect on other aspects of shootng or predator control. Its fairly strict as it is using a dog at all may become illegal, wot if u would a fox on the lamp/NV/thermal would u be alowed to follow it up with ur dog? many keepers often lamp with a GWP purely for that reason. I very very rarely lift a gun to a woodcock now, thats my choice and suits my morals but i would never dream of forcing that on others or signing a petion to ban it. Make absolutlely no mistake no matter how lowly or working class u think ur chosen sport is the antis want to ban it. Esp since WJ came about they are going down a far more clever route targeting the fringes and the laws ( like GL's) U may think they'll never ban pigeon shooting or ferreting for an example, but they have already tried very hard with pigeon shooting and the GL. For me its an absolute no brainer that pigeons ned to be controlled same with rabbits or foxes for the massive damage they cause to agriculture but the way modern society is turning sand growing more urban do u really think they care about a farmers losses?? U think they'll never ban shooting rabbits? Hell they've tried to force a ban on shooting mountian/blue hares throu in scotland. To those that dont know they absolutely thrive on well managed grouse moors because of the cracking habitat and are the nearest thing to a rabbit u'll get on the high ground. Even shooting foxes, badger probably do far more harm to wildlife now than foxes do and are protected, hell foxes only eat meat anyway so once they ban us from eating meat be no need for foxing. Even the various trophy hunting legislation being talked about at moment, a lot will depend on how it goes but very possible that keeping an antler of any deer could be classed as a trophy and so illegal. When legislation is brought in it is never a good thing and with very urban governements small changes can have far larger un meant consequences. Same with WWT and RSPB spending members money doing research about lead contamination in game meats, has no bearing on there work just an alternative way to curb shooting, and working very well. When the lead ban comes into affect it will have massive implications on airguns and rimfire rifles paticularlly as well as target shooting all just collateral damage. When u want a fieldsport banned be very careful wot u wish for, as it will not stop thee antis and only drive them on to target more fieldsports/freedoms as justifies there strange ideals Very sad but true, and even now i'd say living in rural scotland freedoms i knew as a kid are massively frowned on now. U just couldn't do half the stuff i done as a kid , really not that long ago Very sad and sadly speeding up rapidly esp since the internet became a thing and when u have some of the attitudes highlighted here amongst fellow shooters we really are screwed. Bad enough antis peddling lies and half truths as gospel without doing it to ourselves. U often see the same when u get other shooters on about grouse shooting too

Considering the thread is about euthanasing ur own dogs ur now calling for all hunting to be banned??? From wot i can gather the didn't do it after or during the meet or take them down the local high street to do it, they done it in wot should be a private place out of the publics view and by all accounts very humanely. Also dunno how good the footage was but how can u tell the hound was 5 years old?? U mention that quite a bit, hell i struggle to tell my own dogs ages by looking at them without getting the paper work out. Yet u can tell a strange hounds age from short video clips. Impressive Dont know much about the mounted packs but with the guns packs i've been out with hounds were a lot older than 5 or 6, really just coming into there prime at that age. U say all hunts dont act illegally but still call for it to be banned? Following on from this logic u'd also ban greyhound and horse racing as some animals may be 'retired' earlier than natural. Wot about working farm dogs many of them will do the short 1 way walk when to old for work. I'm so glad u don't have anything to do with traffic enforcement/driving, with ur logic all driving should be banned as some cars speed. Or banning drink as some folk get drunk, become alcholics. There is lots of things i dont like but i don't automatically want them banned. No wonder fieldsports are on such a shooglie peg nowadays, the anti's must be absolutely wetting themselves that threads like this exist. 8 pages about someone shooting his own dog/hound so ill had to be carried. U just couldn't make it up. Divide and conquer. And if u think the antis actually really care about this or would stop if/when hunting gets banned ur sadly mistaken. Just move on to next target, driven shooting as there doing with grouse at minute, then rough shooting, gun ownership and fishing will all be targets further down the line. They will never be happy until we're all eating tofu and soya grown in a cut down rain forrest o the other side of the world. U know all to save the planet and that

Until i read this thread i forgot why i rarely come on here now. I think some of u live in a different planet, very different to me esp as alleged shooting men. 1282, u claim to hunt but actually only shoot and ferret and all throu thread have claimed all hunts are acting illegally but then in the last page admit u only have knowledge of 2 hunts, i have no idea if they were acting illegally or not or how often they do but the whole thread u have been tarring every hunt with the same brush. In scotland the hunting law is completely different and most hunts are well within the law With ur in depth knowledge of dogs, now i've never been a huntsman or really followed hunts very much, althou done a fair bit with a travelling gun pack over the years so not unfamilar with hounds and there husbandry. But i would imagine the vast majority of hounds will never have been inside a building/house (depending on how they were puppy walked) or been to a vets and will struggle to walk on a lead. So are u really suggesting putting a hound into a motor, on its own (very unusual for an adult hound) travelling to a vets its never seen before taking it inside a building when its never been in 1 before on a lead to get it PTS is less stress free than the huntsman who its known all its life quietly talking it to the side possibly putting a handful of grub on the deck and BANG, i bet the hounds tail never stopped wagging until it was over. For me that is a far less stressful way to go and actually shows more respect to the animal. Just beccause ur taking an animals life dosen't automatically mean ur not respecting it/them I mind working back on the F&M crisis the best slaughter man i worked with with either tickle difficult cows ears or rub it forehead to relax it and get a good position the captive bolt, seen other more abitoir men almost wrestling with the cow to position its head, big difference but end result is the same A hound will have a better lifestyle than most dogs couped up in a city flat/house and because the owners have no idea about training are unable to ever let it of the lead. In scotland there are large areas of land where fox control is almost impossible with out the hounds, and is hard enough even with hound packs. Hunting is not really my thing but long may it continue in scotland the way it does now, althou with the axis of evil in power (snp/greens coilition) i'd bet its days are numbered Clangerman if u think pigeon shooting is safe ur living in cloud coockoo land, every year the GL is legally challenged now, if things carry on the way there going now and continue to accelerate it really is only a matter of time before u are only allowed to shoot pigeons on the actual crop there causing damage too. So no stubble shooting, no roost shooting, its already borderline shooting a pigeon as part of a driven or rough days shooting now

I was going to mention roy but couldnae mind his last name, shot over his a few times. A lad beats with 1 on a shoot a pick up on, Don't really see the attraction in them but that's just a personal thing

Plenty of very good advice previous, all will work althou sometimes u need to pick and choose which works best for u and that paticular dog. Most important thing is 100% consistant, u know exactly where u want the dog to be and the second it isn't u correct/change direction. But when it is u praise/treat. Sounds obvious but many folk get it wrong or let dog pull for 30 second/1 min, 5 min before correcting then repeat, dog doesnt know wot its meant to be doing. Other good drills are figure of 8's and changing speeds, esp walking dead slow, basically just keeping the dog guessing and concentrating all variations of wot others have said. For me the key thing is, u say dog is spot on in ur garden, so just constatly walk him round ur garden until absolutely perfect always with lead on dont be in a hurry to take it off. At 5 month it doesnt really need a lot of walking, i rarely walk young dogs very far unless training, tey get plenty of excercise free running/playing with my older dogs When perfect try just outside garden until perfect, they throw in another slight change and just keep progressing in very small steps always succeeding in the previous 1 1st.

I think the thing with introducing young dogs is althou the training may be there/almos there often the concentration/maturity isn't. There is a lot of young dogs spoiled by too much too soon, it's very rare to any damage holding them back an extra season, esp if a lot off scent/excitement on the day. As everyone has said back to basics and u could be on he edge of a unruly dog, if it starts chasing at tha age often the trigger for them to start squeaking/yipping. Very hard to cure

Are some of the top cocker studs now not well into 20s . Will be a few years ago but mind there was an article in ST about grouse time as I was picking up alongside some decent cocker breeders, where it listed the CoI of top 5 cocker studs and all were in high 20s and 3 were closely related to each other too from the same kennel. The most likely problem U'll have is it will be the 'well bred' working dogs will also be the dogs with a higher CoI. 1 thing wether buying a mongeral or non of registered dog is if u don't know the breeding u can't breed of it in future. I'm not a big believer in KC but u do need to know the parentage before u can ever even contemplate breeding from it. Purely to make sure not breeding from related dogs esp if 1 has moved homes they might not who bred the original litter.

Must admit I never wear a tie and not about to start now. Nowadays mainly picking up more than shooting, but even when I ran my own syndicate never wore a tie. Just not me, always tidy( ish) often +4s and shirt waist coat but all about being practical and comfy. I'm paid to put birds in the bag not look good in a tie, most of the other pickers on most off shoots I go to including the grouse rather wear a tie Like a few have said earlier wearing a tie does not mean u will respect the bird, seen folk dressed up like they stepped out of a catalogue many times with no clue or respect for birds.

Like others have said impossible to predict, every licensing authority will be different. But if guns being stored on club house/cabinet can't see there being an awful lot of risk. But still easier to say No, which then covers there behinds. It might be worth him joining basc or another org, or possibly more than 1. God knows if basc would be any help but they definately won't if he applies for FAC 1st before he is a member as it would be an ongoing issue, which ever org he joins join it before he applies. That's why I would join multiple orgs so if basc are useless ( as I expect they will be) u have a fall back org as he will have a higher chance of having issues than a normal 1st time applicant

Just not sure how useful it will be in true survival situations, as u will need a phone signal and battery life, not something u want to depend on in the wild or remote places A map and compas will always be king in my eyes as long as u can use them, which sadly is a dying skill And u will run the increased risk among the numpties wrongly thinking w3w means they don't need any other maps or emergency survival gear. The sort of folk doing ben Nevis in flip flops which happens To be honest it will make no difference for emergency services etc wether u give gtid refs, long/lat or 3 words and in most cases make no odds to user either as all 3 will most likely involve an app on ur phone.so makes no odds wot the app converts the info too But I would say for say recording shot deer in records not much good as doesn't tell u were they are in relation to each other, u could look at grid references and know how close and wot direction deer were shot to even without looking at a map I don't think spelling mistakes will make a massive difference as long as the folk know wot region ur in, I made a typo the other day and similar spellings came up India and America so as long as u give nearest town should be good enough. Can u link 3 words app to a decent mApping app? I was showing a driver it yest so he could use it to get fitters out to his harvester/forwarder. The map it was on just showed a mass of green with no forest tracks marked so completely useless to find that machine as sometimes the correct forest track might sweep in wrong direction for a bit. Never used it yet to find a site so dunno how useful, but it should be ideal, some forests are just a maze of tracks know a few that u can drive 20+ miles on the main drag into the wood not including the manyloops and dead ends

That's a fair compliment coming from u ditchy 😀😀😀 The ultimate handy man It Works well. My old fencing boss had 1 made with a jack hammer tar chisel, but quite a numb edge for cutting heavy roots. We hand balled everything with him and dug every strainer in so u dug plenty of deep holes, quite a few with roots. I adapted that idea for the brick bolster, works real well esp on a heavy bar, holds a decent edge and easy sharpened with a buff. I ended up welding a 2nd 1 on a lightweight pipe for less demanding jobs.

By the time u take ur bar and chain off, get grinder off shelf and set up u could have sharpened ur chain by hand easily. I thought it would be handy for my 3ft bar but still think less hassle doing it by hand.

An old axe is handy for shallow roots. For deep 1s I welded a 4" brick bolster to a pinch bar/ 1" solid bar, works a treat seen me going throu roots the size of ur leg and not taking that long either And easy to sharpen with a grinder Needs must when u need to get a post in the correct place

The harvester driver I was cutting for today still sharpens all his chains by hand. Reckons grinders don't come close for sharpness or holding there edge, but not many drivers do that as they can get throu a few chains in a day and usually 60-80cm so plenty cutters to sharpen.

For a hobby user those above files are the best things, keep ur rakers at correct hieght. U will hand sharpen a chain far quickier than u will with a grinder, esp by the time u take the chain off. I've got 2 chain grinders sitting in my she'd never used a cheap 1 and an Oregon 1, originally bought them for doing my 3ft milling chain. Still use normal files less hassle

Must admit not really bothered by the above, I have a bigger problem with the show types actually breeding and promoting dogs with genetic defects and that will create health's problems in the future. Got it squashed nose/face breeds with breathing issues yet still want faces flatter. Droopy eyelid breeds Or others with excessively long/short legs/back or anything else causing movement issues. Is the pronounced ridge on a Ridgeback not a genetic flaw to? But modern FT are no better springers pure white and smaller to make them look flashier when working, and cockers smaller again to look as if hunting harder. Whereas if ur working a dog all day u want it talker so covering the ground easier making its day easier Like modern FT modern show and the money in breeding has ruined most dog breeds, bet very few meet the original bred standard now. Both great ideas originally trying to find best dogs for breeding but became far to specific and veered from the original idea.

I'd say that's a bit harsh when u see the state modern FT bred dogs are in. Atleast show folk generally think about there matings, not saying I free with some off there ideas. Labs, skinny whippet looking things, no double coat and no otter tail they wouldn't pass the the breed standard. Not unusual to she a modern bred lab sitting shivering on a peg or tip toeing round thistles as coat so thin Modern spaniels are no better springers tiny and pure white, cockers even smaller and severely inbred, apart from the many sprockers that still have KC papers as cockers Bizarely ur pure working lines will be nearer breed standards that wot most folk would call ur well bred lines, wether FT or show bred A bloke in my village only just weaned pups off his bitch, she's came in season and trying to get her lined again. His dogs are rubbish too, lucky if work more than a few days a year and no training/control

Surely us still be allowed to, as ur culling to prevent future damage. If ur only shooting where there feeding to protect crops, niether roost shooting or shooting over stubbles would be legal as no crops to protect.

Just as well it can continue. Most grousey areas there is very little emp!oyment or spare cash flying about. After last season next to no shooting on most moors due to poor numbers, next to no tourism this summer. Many hotels and businesses will be praying for a decent shooting season wether grouse or otherwise, just to keep there doors open Surprising the money involved even in only making the lunches every day. An estate near me is booked 6 days a week until Feb ( not grouse) and the bodies and money it brings in to an otherwise ****Ty valley is unreal. Must admit I'm amazed wee Nicola/greens haven't managed to remove th e exemption yet, there usually never slow to kick shooting if they get the chance. Ie sporting interests where exempt from any loans/compensation due to lock down ( lost stalking income) Plus not sure why there mentioning 30 folk other than to make a better headline, in reality will really only be 10 max as all others beaters, pickers etc are employees so not an issue. Must admit I do think basc are just glory hounds claiming the glory when a load of others involved, just a shame they weren't as good at actually defending shooting rather than promoting themselves

I have seen them kill far more than they can eat. Seem to scare the hell out off birds and they flap /clamp down, glossy was just walking round pen killing birds with its talons. We built a new pen and had to abandon it after 3 years just could not stand the losses due to a gossy, plenty cover, CDs, kiddy's holigraphc windmills, reduced buzzard and sparrow hawk losses to almost nil. Couldn't do anything with the glossy, to make matters worse was a big ride next to pen so poults would not even hang about the wire and would not cross the ride even when walked back in. The nieghbouring keeper had the same problem except birds so scared and stressed would hardly feed unless he was there. Funny thing was bossy just targeted 1 off our pens and 1 of neighbours too They do say a radio inside a bucket helps thou. Know some keepers further east that used to have decent numbers of blackcock, when gossy numbers get up and if they find a lek it's not long until they've wiped it out. Also the ammount of fence strikes goes throu the roof as birds flying in a blind panic into fences they never used to fly into. Absolutely savage on them

Each to there own, many ways to train dogs. Not seen many dogs that will sit/stop on a whistle when running full pelt at a road that have not enough obedience training to recall. I know at the end of a long season older more experienced picking up dogs the stop whistle is the 1st to disappear yet while still recall well In my opinion recall tends to be easier to train than a stop, esp so if a dog is running full pelt at a distance. Seen a lot of decent working dogs that won't do that 100% of the time. Seen quite a few beating line dogs that work semi ok ish and have never known wot a stop whistle is, fair enough on a lead most of the drive on a biggish shoot For the OP I would not give up on dog just intensive basics and NO free running for a while. Plenty of lead walking with dog in the 'heel' position not pulling like a train and as Ninja says sitting on command on lead both whistle/hand/voice and when u stop he stops. It must be instant and on 1st command If a dog isn't obedient instantly while at ur side on a lead it's never going to be at distance with loads of other distractions about. Be well worth a lesson with a decent pro trainer esp if u never used a long line, be easier ways and tricks to train when shown, can make a big difference. Think of the cost as an investment in ur shooting and life in general as at moment ur dog will be useless as a shooting dog and a real pain in neck every day as a pet, no fun having a disobedient dog for ur day to day life. I definately would use treats ( chicken or smoked sausage) and high value 1s to help with recall if dog is for recall. Just to add I don't see it as a choice between a stop or recall u should be teaching both at same time, just the op asked for help for recall 1st. But both are very important

The only thing I'd say is many dogs will recall quite well even without a stop whistle, many pet dogs can have an excellent recall but no stop whistle. Don't imagine many pet dogs are ever trained for a stop whistle Very important for a working dog to have a decent stop whistle but I would say possibly complicating the issue in this case. I know in circumstances described I would be training the recall and stop whistle separately. But no doubt stop/heel work and general obedience will also need plenty of work as someone said earlier back to basics. And do u not need a good recall to train a stop? I know it's the way I train it when I 1st introduce a stop at distance is during a recall. Without a good recall it would be hard to train a stop the way I train it

Plenty of good advice above. If he recalls well in garden he must know the command. With the long line I tend to use a chest harness thing so not dragging under dogs feet and make the line out off washing line. The plastic stuff tends to slide quite well throu stuff. If ur meaning to working it I would be very very careful about working it this season. Don't be tempted unless ur 110% certain and recall is perfect in all circumstances even around gamey scent

Cheers DH Aye trained with quite a few top trainers with my last 1 and went to training wknds etc, also done quite a bit with normal gundog pro trainers/A panel judges etc. Pick up with a few on different shoots. Quite lucky in this area quite a few good 1s about and all very friendly Done some hpr club days but was never that impressed with the standard off advice. A wee bit old fashioned My old head keeper is doing very well with trialling hprs and has made a few up over last few years Always meant to go down for some training with andy cullen, was meant to go years ago when he was still up the road. Mibbee next year Lucky to have access to a few grouse moors and my own shoot, hopefully going to set it up next year just the the hpr and rear some pheasants and Grey's under broodies. Got a couple off decent snipe bogs on it too. Is ideal pointing ground, had quite a few come on shoot days in the past but I have to say most were rubbish/poor and just a pain working with other dogs, going on false ponts all over place and then having to hold the line up or other dogs learning to steal there point and flush game I will hopefully keep it just for the FT if it gets to that standard if not will relegate it to picking up pack, and stalking have a go at getting it on the Ukdtr register.