So who exactly did make the original pigeon magnet

[Teal]

Not the beasleys it would seem if this ebay item is to be believed!!

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...49&category=383

 

[Cranfield]

Teal, have you been away ?

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...?showtopic=3839

[webber]

Teal, and others

 

I assure you that to the best of my knowledge the item on ebay is genuine.

 

I inocently stumbled over the item whilst trying to find a secondhand Pinewood rotor.

 

I can see where eugene is coming from with his comments, but dont forget that there have been some fantastic feats of engineering throughout history without the use of expensive press tools. I cant agree with eugine that RHS has been used, close examination of the photographs just dont support this, but I can see why he thought so.

 

If I hadnt battered the plastic so much recently I would be tempted to buy the thing just to pull it to bits.

 

So we are agreed that the true inventor of the pigeon rotor/magnet was neither of the afore mentioned pigeon guides, so who was it?

 

I will email the vendor and enquire as to any makers names etc, and report back.

 

webber

[webber]

I have contacted the vendor by email.

 

His reply advises no hollow section tubing and no makers name.

 

webber

[eugene molloy]

Webber,

 

Please don’t think I’m impugning your honesty or the vendors’ or anyone else’s, I’m not.

Webber,

 

Please don't think I was accusing anyone of anything underhand, I wasn't.

 

However I remain unconvinced (there is after all no provenance) and I’m going to stick by my original thoughts; in my opinion what ever it is it isn’t an Edwardian woodpigeon decoy. I believe it it’s from the nursery or the parlour. However it is a bit of fun.

 

As to who “invented” the rotary decoy as we know it, I’m a member of the Rhett Butler tendency. Pigeon guides spend a lot of their time sitting in wet ditches staring up trees wishing they were somewhere else; it’s bound to affect their judgement. Leave ‘em to it poor souls.

 

Regards

 

Eug

[webber]

Eugene

 

How can a pigeon guide be a poor soul?

 

Have you seen what they charge?

 

webber

[eugene molloy]

Webber,

 

Most guides I've met are not happy people, they find the mechanics of the job fairly easy but their interpersonal skills are shall we say ready for further development.

 

The problem as I see it is that the qualities you need as a pigeon guide don't qualify you to be a businessman, and they are in business. The measure of how good you are with clients is how you handle things going wrong, your self discipline in maintaining client service, and basic efficiency. Few of the guides I've met can do these things successfully and so they are unhappy and defensive when they need not be. Some of them really are "poor souls".

 

In my time I've met (and used) four pigeon guides.

 

Number one had a broad Yorkshire accent and a terible stutter. This would be unimportant except that I too had the stammers as a kid and when I was in this nerks company I caught it again big time. My companion was a Greek chap who spoke little English but had reasonably fluent French. I can speak French too, and had volunteered to be duty translator. It all went bosoms up as you may imagine; but worst of all Christoper has a goonish sense of humour, and wet himself all day long. Monty Python had nothing on us..we did shoot a fair bag though. 7/10

 

Number two. I'd been asked to get to his farm at 8.00. which, being a ****** for punctuality I did. The place was unlocked, so I went into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and sat down with the paper. At the crack of ten past nine our man appeared from upstairs looking like a survivour from Dunkirk. I was disapponted he couldn't remember my name but quite amused he was unable to recall his own either. The day went downhill after that; I was called by the Police on my mobile asking if my car had been stolen as it had been reported by a passerby "abandoned" in a field. There wasn't a breath of wind (other than that generated by our chum.) Had I killed every bird possible I'd have got ten. I got six so the experience rates 2/10

 

Number 3. Good lad, tried hard, efficient, we shot a few, so 8/10

 

Number 4 Good lad, tried a bit, semi-efficient, we shot 15 between two of us. 4/10

 

So there you are with guides; one tyke wobblygob, one pisshead, one good egg one curates egg. Some I paid for, with others I guested. Only one seemed to be contented in what he waas doing, and secure in himself. But hey..where else could I have learned the Greek for a certain French phrase concerning squadron leaders?

 

Regards

 

Eug

[webber]

Eugine

 

Your certainly right, there are some absolute charachters out there, who are best left to their own devices (note the punn)

 

For information, the edwardian job sold on ebay for £29, I was seriously tempted, but having promised Mrs. webber faithfully that I would keep to my allowance on the plastic, I really did have to be a good boy. So I stuck a very nice leather gun slip onto my brothers switch card. Well I couldnt see it sail off into cyberspace. So Ill have to sell some scrap tomorrow and give him the cash quick; and sneak the slip upstairs into the den, when the soup dragons attentions are directed elsewhere.

 

webber

[tiercel]

Eugene you have already told us you have used gary gi as a guide so what number is he. :( :(

[eugene molloy]

Nae names nae pack drill!! I'm sure you can work it out.

 

Eug

[Fisherman Mike]

Anybody seen that Ray Mears guy on his extreme survival programme..

 

One particular episode, I think he is in Australia or such he uses a traditional rotary decoy which is a piece of cloth on a stick pushed up through a hide made of mud & sticks. The stick is spun between the hands and the flapping cloth is supposed to simulate a bird in distress whereapon it is preyed apon by Hawks.

 

On seizing the cloth the Hunter simply pushes his hand through the Hide and grabs the hawk by the legs..

 

This is undoubtably the earliest form of rotary decoy and I can from this confidently deduce that the rotary decoy was invented by the Aborigines of Australia ( or what ever country he was in at the time ) Q.E.D.

 

Eugene...

 

I can readily symapthise with your observations in respect of Pigeon Guides and their capabilities in customer care.. I went with one once who shall remain nameless and to be frank it was a utter waste of money. The guy met me at dawn on a local farm, took my money and basically P.....d off. He returned later that day to find that I had only shot two of the three birds I saw with the quip " oh well mate 50 % strike rate aint bad" Not only was he a complete charlatan he was also inumerate as it was in fact 66.66%..

 

That said I have been with a couple of guides who have been exceptional in their inter personel skills.

[webber]

FM

 

Very interesting, but whilst I think that I can definateley allow this as the origional rotary decoy, the question was really who invented the rotary pigeon decoy. Given that we are after pigeon and we dont grab them by the legs, I dont think that your latest find quite fits the bill. Those native Australians really do know how to survive.

 

One thing is however certain the inventor of the rotary pigeon decoy, magnet, call it what you wish; was not hunterswind, or the Beasleys. They may be able to lay claims to further development of the concept, but invention, sorry, no.

 

I am perplexed that there are obviously a number of dissatisfied pigeon guide customers out there, yet we seem unwilling to name them good or bad.

 

I would like to propose a marking system for guides, and will open a new string with some proposals when I get chance. I shall have to do this at work as I no longer have a computer at home.

[Fisherman Mike]

In view of the inordinate length of time that it takes to obtain a patent i would suggest we settle this issue once and for all by recognising the Inventor of the rotary pigeon decoy as that person or persons who first marketed it commercially.

 

Now who might that of been ??

 

FM

[Cranfield]

webber, be very careful of a "marking system for Guides", especially if you intend to publish it.

Remember there are two sides to every story, and the wood pigeon is a wild creature, so results cannot be guaranteed.

 

We do not need a thread that becomes a slanging match of opinions, especially when someones business could be affected.

Don,t forget the Website owner can be jointly liable for any claims of libel.

 

I,m sure we have all drawn our own opinions, of the Guides that post on here.

If someone wants a recommendation, or comment on a specific Guide, it might be better dealt with by email, or PM.

[webber]

Cranfield

 

Thanks for the words of caution, but it would seem obvious that some guides do a decent job, offer sound digs and grub, and others hide behind the well its a wild bird what do you expect veil.

 

I accept that when the pigeon dont want to play, thats not the guides fault, but in my opinion a good guide will try to relocate his client, or offer an alternative if things are really bad, rabbits or crows as an example. Not just leave the client sat in a non productive hide untill lights out.

 

My proposal is for Pigeon Watch members who have used guides could list the guide or trading name, the date of their visit, and then an ebay style response , +ve, -ve or N neutral, on aspects such as were shooting expectations met?

guides behavior towards clients, quality of accomodation if used, quality and quantity of food, the list could be added to as members get a feel for what we are trying to achieve. Probably the most important question is would they use that guide again?

 

Therefore there is no need for a slanging match, any guide can have a poor run, but if all feed back is -ve, then that will tell prospective clients to be on their guard.

 

Something along these lines would assist prospective clients in selecting a guide with a little more certainty than the current method which is little better than sticking a pin in.

 

This proposal can only be to the good for all sides.

 

webber

[webber]

FM

 

Weve gone this far, why cop out now?

 

webber

[Fisherman Mike]

Webber..

 

I agree with Cranfield to some extent we have to be very careful in our compliation of such a marking procedure as utlimately peoples livelihoods are at stake.

 

For my own part I would not use this particular guide again and yet a friend who shot regularly throughout the day had a brilliant opinion of him.

 

I think Cranfields suggestion of a Ebay style feedback system is a good one which could be started quite easily. However we must not be in a position to use the power of this Forum to potentially cause irrepairable damage to somebodies legitimate business or indeed to place feedback retrospectively.

 

You know as well as I that there are some pretty unscrupulous people out there who will do the minimum for their Clients and who would not be offering a fair service in return for their fee. Such a marking system would give creedance to those guides who offer a satisfactory service all things considered. The problem comes as Cranfield said when you consider why you are paying the money in the first instance..,and that is to shoot pigeon... I dare say if I had shot 100 plus birds on my trip with this particular guide he would have been the best thing since sliced bread..

 

I know that some guides are doing their upmost to provide sport for their Clients which is not just about shooting pigeon but also the selection and management of Food and accomodation. No self respecting guide should be afraid of such a feedback procedure.

 

FM

[Cranfield]

FM, I did not suggest the eBay style marking system, that was webber.

 

I repeat, that I think the proposal is fraught with problems, all of which could be overcome by private emails and PM,s.

 

Imagine;

I am Guide A, I register as "Joe Bloggs", pretend to be a customer and complain bitterly about Guide B (who does not read this Forum).

Is that fair ?

I don,t think so.

 

The mischievous permutations are almost endless.

 

At least have the courtesy to approach the PigeonWatch website owner and ask his permission.

It is his site (and liability), not ours.

[M ROBSON]

I think it would work only if it were set up properly. Every guide will have some unsatisfied customers but if they are doing the job properly then the happy customers should far outweigh them. The only concern I have is that there is little control over who posts on here. It wouldn't be hard for a guide or his friends to post a fake, bad report against his nearest competator. Remember, these guys are all compeating for the same custom. Its a bit of a minefield i'm affraid.

[M ROBSON]

You beat me to it Cranners.

[webber]

M Robson and Cranfield

 

I really can see where you are coming from.

 

I did say in my post that it would be necessary to post the date of the visit.

 

If brand X gun or brand Y amunition was not up to standard few PW members would hesitate to say so. If brand Z dog food gave pooch the trotts, we would be told, in graphic detail, probably with pictures.

 

Yet we have pigeon guides, some good, some not so good:are we to be prevented from expressing an honest opinion in a manner that trys to be fair to all, and prevents a slanging match and minute detail for every trip. It didnt take teal long to trip that sutton bridge fellow up, so I think that multiple malicious posts are unlikeley.

 

I do understand your consern, but without information customers can not make an informed decision. TV programs such as Watchdog would not exist, and Ester Rantsen would not be so well off.

 

As I see it the good have nothing to fear, and the bad will either have to sharpen up their act, and cease taking shots for a ride, or move on. We wouldnt buy a gun that repeatedly failed, so why employ a guide who repeatedly fails, when you can pay similar money to a good reputable guide, for his best.

 

I am in favour of censorship, but only when and where it is deemed necessary for the good of the public. I do think that to stifle this proposal would fall far short of the mark.

 

webber

[Fisherman Mike]

FM, I did not suggest the eBay style marking system, that was webber.

Sorry yes of course.. Typimg erreor :*)

 

FM

[Cranfield]

I don,t intend to prolong this debate, but I still think it would be a mistake.

A simple request that, "anyone who has used Guide A, please email, or PM me ,with you opinion", would be sufficient and risk free.

 

Watchdog and Esther Rantzen have both been sued, but they have the BBC,s money to spend.

You cannot control what is posted on here, unless its Moderated 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

 

Asking the "reviewer" to post a date, time and place, doesn,t actually validate whatever they say.

People can lie.

 

I would also suggest, that very few of the pigeon shooters that post on here, will want to use a Pigeon Guide.

So, its hardly a great service to the majority.

 

Before you put any responsibility on William, you should at least have the courtesy to ask his permission.

If he agrees, then I have no more to say.

[ernyha]

I have followed this thread with great interest and feel it is now time i put my views in print.

 

Firstly i have never used and don't intend in the future useing the services of a pigeon guide.

Having said that i realise that some are not in the same fortunate position as myself whereby they have unlimited access to large areas of shooting land and therefore they feel that paying someone else to set them up for a days shooting is the way to go.

 

I agree with a lot of the points raised suggesting that some form of league table should be set up giving peoples personal experiances with particular guides but on the other hand i also see the many pitfalls that this route could lead to, not least the legal implications.

 

William is the sole person to have the say on this matter as he is the one who would ultimately be "in the dock" if someone did take legal action for libel for remarks made on this forum against an individual guide .

 

Some of you may have noticed that William put the "Gone Fishing" sign up a couple of days ago so i am afraid the subject of name and shame or name and praise of individual shooting guides will have to remain on hold until his return.

[Fisherman Mike]

Spoken like a old hand Ern.

 

FM.