Sir David King's SAGE alternative

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

The article is certainly from the Mail, but I am assuming the 'mini biographies' they have published are 'factual'.  I suspect it would be easy enough to check most of it, but I'm not going to volunteer!

On them all being remainers .......... I think it simply shows that this is a group of 'like minds' and that doesn't usually bode well for impartiality and being able to 'see all points of view'.

The present 'real' sage have now published their names (all except two I believe who didn't want to be named) - and I have not researched their backgrounds, but I would expect them to be a rather broader range of views than Sir David King's group.

Sir David King advised the Blair and Brown governments.  I don't know what policies resulted directly from his advice ......... but he was a big supporter of getting Joe Public to move to diesel cars (to save carbon) - in which narrow sense he was right - they do produce less carbon.  However - subsequent 'wisdom' is that it was an incorrect and shortsighted policy - which ignored the broader science.  As an expert adviser, I think past shortcomings in their advice should be considered - as it brings into question their suitability.  This is not afterall - an elected person, merely a 'self appointed' person who seems to have the ears to the press and others with loud voices.

Thanks John, I just wanted to understand the bit about Remainers. That being clearer I do agree that, even putting aside political and ideological tendencies, it's all a bit weird.

It would be interesting to understand the events that led to this, I know there were a fair few number - I assume not all of the

12 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Diesel is still much better for the environment than petrol, except in city centres 

Indeed, I was going to come back on this point, as is the case in many decisions - a case of picking your poison...

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That being clearer I do agree that, even putting aside political and ideological tendencies, it's all a bit weird.

Well, various people (mostly outside Governments, but possibly some less 'obedient' Government people as well) have questioned whether Cummings attending SAGE as an 'observer' was suitable because he was a political figure.  In my book, if he is an observer - then his politics are irrelevant - but the key thing is that they were suggesting that above almost all - SAGE should be scientific advice free of politics (which was where Cummings attendance was causing concern).  As far as I know, the existing SAGE members have kept their politics (if they have political tendencies) very much to themselves - which is just how professional 'expert panel members' should behave.  Well done them.

Sir David King's group seem to be very much (and very openly) active and aligned 'politically' and 'belief' wise - and so it is really hard to see how they can give impartial advice - or indeed have any relevance.

[Bumble]

I think you’ll find that vast swathes of the scientific & academic community are Remainers. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well, various people (mostly outside Governments, but possibly some less 'obedient' Government people as well) have questioned whether Cummings attending SAGE as an 'observer' was suitable because he was a political figure.  In my book, if he is an observer - then his politics are irrelevant - but the key thing is that they were suggesting that above almost all - SAGE should be scientific advice free of politics (which was where Cummings attendance was causing concern).  As far as I know, the existing SAGE members have kept their politics (if they have political tendencies) very much to themselves - which is just how professional 'expert panel members' should behave.  Well done them.

Sir David King's group seem to be very much (and very openly) active and aligned 'politically' and 'belief' wise - and so it is really hard to see how they can give impartial advice - or indeed have any relevance.

I think the key point is indeed on relevance but I do think it was a bad call having Cummings sit in on the SAGE meetings, participant or obnoxious bystander or whatever (I'm not a fan of his).

I'm sure existing SAGE members do indeed have political tendencies.

19 minutes ago, Bumble said:

I think you’ll find that vast swathes of the scientific & academic community are Remainers. 

Probably best not to go there, been done to death on here. 

[Raja Clavata]

@JohnfromUK what was it you were saying about "professional expert panel members" behaviour - proper own goal by Ferguson 😞 

Seems like 24 hours isn't just a long time in politics...

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

@JohnfromUK what was it you were saying about "professional expert panel members" behaviour - proper own goal by Ferguson 😞 

Seems like 24 hours isn't just a long time in politics...

I have commented in another thread about this one;  I quote what I said there;

"As to the top adviser, he was simply 'stupid' in his behaviour.  It is a non political issue and as far as I know he has kept any politics he may have to himself, so his resignation should also be a 'non political' issue.   He made a bad judgement and it was the wrong message to send - and he has paid the price.  In fact it is said that both he and the person who visited him have had and cleared this virus, and if that is the case, no one was put at risk - but it was stupid. 

A similar thing happened to one of the Scottish administrations top advisers (travelling repeatedly to a second home) and she also resigned."

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

I have commented in another thread about this one;  I quote what I said there;

"As to the top adviser, he was simply 'stupid' in his behaviour.  It is a non political issue and as far as I know he has kept any politics he may have to himself, so his resignation should also be a 'non political' issue.   He made a bad judgement and it was the wrong message to send - and he has paid the price.  In fact it is said that both he and the person who visited him have had and cleared this virus, and if that is the case, no one was put at risk - but it was stupid. 

A similar thing happened to one of the Scottish administrations top advisers (travelling repeatedly to a second home) and she also resigned."

I totally agree that there should not be any political connotation to this. Overall, and forgive the pun, not very sage behaviour...