Plymouth Shooting Enquiry

[PeterHenry]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

Now we are going down the twilight zone route.

 

+1

[JohnfromUK]

The Coroners report calls for "major reform of gun laws";

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64913053

Edited March 10, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[PeterHenry]

'Mr Arrow said: "I am concerned that this approach is at odds with public safety and the fundamental principle that owning a gun is a privilege and not a right".'

Thats a very deliberate way of saying 'everything should be section 1' or similar 

I'm not entirely sure where the bit about the 'fundamental principle' comes from though - the fundamental principle in English law is parliamentary sovereignty, and so it follows that the principles of laws governing guns are what parliament have expressed in the existing legislation.

Edited March 10, 2023 by PeterHenry

[GHE]

Yes, we know about this, and as usual the antis are getting all the publicity they want and our wonderful shooting organisations seem to be either fast asleep or tongue-tied, as always.

The only publicity I've seen from "our" side is this, from the YouTube fieldsports channel 

The coroner seems to be attacking on two fronts

1. He seems to think that making every shotgun a S.1 will somehow improve public safety.
2. He thinks that making the laws even more onerous for shooters will somehow improve public safety.
3. He thinks that getting the police to take another look at grants and applications that they have previously approved will help in some way.
4. He thinks that the police are actually capable of changing, and of doing their jobs properly.

[Scully]

Right, so hands up all those who have done, or intend to, lobby their MP and the Home Secretary to let them know your opinion of the coroners report, our current licensing system and the fact the police are never, and never have been, held to account for their continuous incompetent mishandling of the licensing system? 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

Right, so hands up all those who have done, or intend to, lobby their MP and the Home Secretary to let them know your opinion of the coroners report, our current licensing system and the fact the police are never, and never have been, held to account for their continuous incompetent mishandling of the licensing system? 

I will write if and when some actual proposals come up, but my (present, previous was good) MP is not 'helpful' about fieldsports.  So far, the coroners report seems to have had an 'we will have a look' type of response from the Home Office;

"After receiving the coroner's report on Friday, the Home Office said it would respond in due course."

This suggests that there may be a revision of 'guidelines', but maybe no actual changes to the law?  As I say - when there is actually something to comment on from the Home Office, I may write if appropriate.

[GHE]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

Right, so hands up all those who have done, or intend to, lobby their MP and the Home Secretary to let them know your opinion of the coroners report, our current licensing system and the fact the police are never, and never have been, held to account for their continuous incompetent mishandling of the licensing system? 

The shooting organisations should be doing this. BASC, as an example, say that they have  a membership of over 150,000, that's more than 150,000 people paying them to represent their interests and 143 members of staff. Other  organisations seem to be equally useless.

38 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I will write if and when some actual proposals come up, but my (present, previous was good) MP is not 'helpful' about fieldsports.  So far, the coroners report seems to have had an 'we will have a look' type of response from the Home Office;

"After receiving the coroner's report on Friday, the Home Office said it would respond in due course."

This suggests that there may be a revision of 'guidelines', but maybe no actual changes to the law?  As I say - when there is actually something to comment on from the Home Office, I may write if appropriate.

It doesn't work that way. The Coroners' report must be responded to by HMG, although they probably won't do anything about it until after the election, and they may not be in power then, so the future is uncertain.

But, when and if they do take some form of action they may well just make new regulations under existing legislation, which is a back-door way of changing the law, without any parliamentary debate or even public knowledge. And this is the reason why we can't afford to wait 
 

43 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 if and when some actual proposals come up

Which is why we need to do something NOW. And, given the fact that our shooting organisations are just a waste of space, maybe Scully is right about writing to Members of Parliament, even though it should be the organisations that do that.

[Conor O'Gorman]

23 hours ago, GHE said:

The shooting organisations should be doing this. BASC, as an example, say that they have  a membership of over 150,000, that's more than 150,000 people paying them to represent their interests and 143 members of staff. Other  organisations seem to be equally useless.

It doesn't work that way. The Coroners' report must be responded to by HMG, although they probably won't do anything about it until after the election, and they may not be in power then, so the future is uncertain.

But, when and if they do take some form of action they may well just make new regulations under existing legislation, which is a back-door way of changing the law, without any parliamentary debate or even public knowledge. And this is the reason why we can't afford to wait 
 

Which is why we need to do something NOW. And, given the fact that our shooting organisations are just a waste of space, maybe Scully is right about writing to Members of Parliament, even though it should be the organisations that do that.

BASC has been taking action and we have been updating people on this weekly through our BASC Live e-newsletter. Given your comments above I think you have not yet signed up - please click the weblink below to do so.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

Writing to your MP is important. It would also help to ask your MP to raise your concerns with the Minister on your behalf and to forward the response they receive to you. Also ask your MP for a meeting to discuss your concerns as a certificate holder and voter in their constituency.

Weight in numbers can make a difference. For example, the PCC for West Mercia police (Herefordshire, Shropshire, Telford & Wrekin and Worcestershire) has allocated an extra £200,000 to improve firearms licensing and has stated that "in the last twelve months I have received 46 pieces of correspondence from people frustrated at the length of time it is taking to receive their licences. This has subsequently led to holding to account meetings, with the Chief Constable, to see assurances on what is being done to resolve these issues."

https://www.westmercia-pcc.gov.uk/pcc-investment-to-resolve-backlog-in-firearms-licensing/

PCCs hold Chief Constables to account on the performance of their forces, including for firearms licensing. If your local firearms licensing department is performing badly, use our contact platform below to write to your PCC. You can also get in touch with your MP using the platform.

https://basc.org.uk/firearms-licensing-contact-your-police-and-crime-commissioner/

Edited March 11, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[GHE]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has been taking action and we have been updating people on this weekly through our BASC Live e-newsletter. Given your comments above I think you have not yet signed up - please click the weblink below to do so.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

 

You're right, I haven't signed up to your newsletter. I had personal experience of BASC some years ago, as a result of which I'm not going to give them my contact details. However, by following a series of links on your website I've now seen the following statement 

"In response to the coroner publishing a report into the shootings in Keyham, BASC has released the following statement:

“BASC is clear that we need a system of licensing that protects public safety and also provides an efficient service. It is plain to see that that system was absent in Keyham with tragic consequences.

“BASC has previously written to the coroner to outline key steps that could help prevent future shootings. We will take time to consider the coroner’s report to the Home Office in detail.

“We have previously asked for the creation of a national regulator to monitor and manage both firearms licensing and the training of police staff and officers to improved standards.

“We also want a system that ensures the medical profession has a statutory obligation to engage fully with the licensing process and puts markers on the medical notes of certificate holders so that their health can be monitored for the life of the certificate.

“However, while supportive of considered measures that improve public safety, we would warn against any recommendation to remove the distinction between processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders.

“This would impose an unnecessary burden that would do nothing to improve public safety. Indeed, it would place a further, unmanageable workload on firearms licensing teams that are already failing to meet their statutory obligations to protect the public. That recommendation, if implemented, would have a significant, detrimental impact on the service the police are able to provide to the community.

“BASC will meet with government to ensure that the views of the shooting community are represented and that the change needed to protect public safety is proportionate, effective and are not at the cost of the lawful, legitimate firearms community.”

That's a bland, non-controversial and ineffective statement that won't make anyone think. What's actually needed is a clear and unambiguous statement that lays the blame squarely on the police, who failed to carry out their statutory duties in respect not only the Plymouth shooting but also in respect of all of the other spree shootings - Hungerford, Dunblane and Whitehaven. Frankly my cat could have done a better job, and I haven't got a cat.

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Writing to your MP is important. It would also help to ask your MP to raise your concerns with the Minister on your behalf and to forward the response they receive to you. Also ask your MP for a meeting to discuss your concerns as a certificate holder and voter in their constituency.

Weight in numbers can make a difference. For example, the PCC for West Mercia police (Herefordshire, Shropshire, Telford & Wrekin and Worcestershire) has allocated an extra £200,000 to improve firearms licensing and has stated that "in the last twelve months I have received 46 pieces of correspondence from people frustrated at the length of time it is taking to receive their licences. This has subsequently led to holding to account meetings, with the Chief Constable, to see assurances on what is being done to resolve these issues."

 

This is just a red herring. Members of Parliament tend to interest themselves only in matters that matter to their electors, and as Devon is a very long way from where I live (Yorkshire) it's extremely unlikely that my MP (who keeps himself busy representing the interests of the gambling industry) will be interested.

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

PCCs hold Chief Constables to account on the performance of their forces, including for firearms licensing. If your local firearms licensing department is performing badly, use our contact platform below to write to your PCC. You can also get in touch with your MP using the platform.

https://basc.org.uk/firearms-licensing-contact-your-police-and-crime-commissioner/

Some PCC's may do a useful job, but the vast majority are effectively political appointments and they do little or nothing useful. And, again, the same territorial limits apply, they are (at best) concerned only with the actions of the police in their own county, and act only on the complaints of people living in that county. Your "success story" in relation to the PCC for West Mercia police does seem to have been a good result, but it illustrates my point, not yours, i.e. that the PCC is only interested in his or her local votes.

So, thanks for your reply - which is much better written than usual - but it doesn't address the concerns of the shooters who pay your wages.

[Scully]

20 hours ago, GHE said:

You're right, I haven't signed up to your newsletter. I had personal experience of BASC some years ago, as a result of which I'm not going to give them my contact details. However, by following a series of links on your website I've now seen the following statement 

"In response to the coroner publishing a report into the shootings in Keyham, BASC has released the following statement:

“BASC is clear that we need a system of licensing that protects public safety and also provides an efficient service. It is plain to see that that system was absent in Keyham with tragic consequences.

“BASC has previously written to the coroner to outline key steps that could help prevent future shootings. We will take time to consider the coroner’s report to the Home Office in detail.

“We have previously asked for the creation of a national regulator to monitor and manage both firearms licensing and the training of police staff and officers to improved standards.

“We also want a system that ensures the medical profession has a statutory obligation to engage fully with the licensing process and puts markers on the medical notes of certificate holders so that their health can be monitored for the life of the certificate.

“However, while supportive of considered measures that improve public safety, we would warn against any recommendation to remove the distinction between processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders.

“This would impose an unnecessary burden that would do nothing to improve public safety. Indeed, it would place a further, unmanageable workload on firearms licensing teams that are already failing to meet their statutory obligations to protect the public. That recommendation, if implemented, would have a significant, detrimental impact on the service the police are able to provide to the community.

“BASC will meet with government to ensure that the views of the shooting community are represented and that the change needed to protect public safety is proportionate, effective and are not at the cost of the lawful, legitimate firearms community.”

That's a bland, non-controversial and ineffective statement that won't make anyone think. What's actually needed is a clear and unambiguous statement that lays the blame squarely on the police, who failed to carry out their statutory duties in respect not only the Plymouth shooting but also in respect of all of the other spree shootings - Hungerford, Dunblane and Whitehaven. Frankly my cat could have done a better job, and I haven't got a cat.

This is just a red herring. Members of Parliament tend to interest themselves only in matters that matter to their electors, and as Devon is a very long way from where I live (Yorkshire) it's extremely unlikely that my MP (who keeps himself busy representing the interests of the gambling industry) will be interested.

Some PCC's may do a useful job, but the vast majority are effectively political appointments and they do little or nothing useful. And, again, the same territorial limits apply, they are (at best) concerned only with the actions of the police in their own county, and act only on the complaints of people living in that county. Your "success story" in relation to the PCC for West Mercia police does seem to have been a good result, but it illustrates my point, not yours, i.e. that the PCC is only interested in his or her local votes.

So, thanks for your reply - which is much better written than usual - but it doesn't address the concerns of the shooters who pay your wages.

It doesn’t matter who your MP is, there is absolutely nothing from preventing anyone from contacting the Home Secretary Suella Braverman, ( who will have the final say ) the HO or your own MP regarding this issue, absolutely nothing at all. 
You could point out the fact there is nothing wrong with current firearms legislation, and it is the failings of the Police and their lack of administering the licensing procedure properly that has let down the families of victims and legitimate firearms owners from Hungerford, Dunblane, Cockermouth, Durham and most recently Plymouth. The only thing preventing anyone from doing so is apathy and indifference. 
You don’t need to be a member of ANY shooting organisation to do this. 
Get off your whinging and whining ‘ that’s what I pay my membership fees for ‘  ***** and get on with it! 
As others have said, if you don’t then you’re part of the problem. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@GHE it is absolutely worth your time contacting your MP and certainly more constructive that posting comments inferring that shooting organisations are useless and doing nothing - not least when it seems you are not keeping up to date with what BASC has been doing and will be doing. To subscribe to BASC Live all you need is an email address so no excuse really. Here is the link again:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

[GHE]

48 minutes ago, Scully said:

It doesn’t matter who your MP is, there is absolutely nothing from preventing anyone from contacting the Home Secretary Suella Braverman, ( who will have the final say ) the HO or your own MP regarding this issue, absolutely nothing at all. 
You could point out the fact there is nothing wrong with current firearms legislation, and it is the failings of the Police and their lack of administering the licensing procedure properly that has let down the families of victims and legitimate firearms owners from Hungerford, Dunblane, Cockermouth, Durham and most recently Plymouth. The only thing preventing anyone from doing so is apathy and indifference. 
You don’t need to be a member of ANY shooting organisation to do this. 
Get off your whinging and whining ‘ that’s what I pay my membership fees for ‘  ***** and get on with it! 
As others have said, if you don’t then you’re part of the problem. 

I don't believe for a moment that writing to the HS will do a scrap of good, but I'll do it, and will share both my letter and any response here.

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@GHE it is absolutely worth your time contacting your MP and certainly more constructive that posting comments inferring that shooting organisations are useless and doing nothing - not least when it seems you are not keeping up to date with what BASC has been doing and will be doing. To subscribe to BASC Live all you need is an email address so no excuse really. Here is the link again:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

It's sad that a paid mouthpiece for BASC doesn't even know the difference between implying and inferring. Sad, but down to the usual standard.

And I didn't imply that BASC is doing little or nothing, I stated it.

[Conor O'Gorman]

@GHE the subject of this thread is a very serious issue for shooting and it's neither helpful nor constructive that you continue to publish misinformed statements about BASC - which you have done at least 3 times now - others include incorrect inferences you made about national pigeon day and airgun licensing in Scotland - and which you have been corrected on by fellow PW members.

Back to the OP we have issued a number of statements to the media, many of which have been used to provide balance on  media coverage on this matter in the national press.

We have briefed pro-shooting MPs who have been speaking privately to Ministers and we’ve briefed the 150 members of the All Party Group for Shooting and Conservation and asked them to write or speak to the Minister - who will be attending the next meeting of the group to discuss the issue with MPs.

[GHE]

14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@GHE the subject of this thread is a very serious issue for shooting and it's neither helpful nor constructive that you continue to publish misinformed statements about BASC - which you have done at least 3 times now - others include incorrect inferences you made about national pigeon day and airgun licensing in Scotland - and which you have been corrected on by fellow PW members.

Back to the OP we have issued a number of statements to the media, many of which have been used to provide balance on  media coverage on this matter in the national press.

We have briefed pro-shooting MPs who have been speaking privately to Ministers and we’ve briefed the 150 members of the All Party Group for Shooting and Conservation and asked them to write or speak to the Minister - who will be attending the next meeting of the group to discuss the issue with MPs.

Thanks for your response. However whenever I have made comments about the ineffectiveness of shooting organisations (including but not limited to BASC) I have done so because I believe my comments to be true.

However, once again you have failed to address any of the points I raised with you.

On 12/03/2023 at 20:22, GHE said:

I don't believe for a moment that writing to the HS will do a scrap of good, but I'll do it, and will share both my letter and any response here.

It's sad that a paid mouthpiece for BASC doesn't even know the difference between implying and inferring. Sad, but down to the usual standard.

And I didn't imply that BASC is doing little or nothing, I stated it.