Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 2 minutes ago, Konor said: Sorry I thought you wrote earlier of your interest in a poll on the forum to assess your support I must have misremembered ,in hindsight it doesn’t seem a likely scenario. Nope, one of the handful suggested a poll and will probably not follow through. Like everything in these threads - all talk and no action. 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: I think youre missing the point, whether the 'evidence' is conclusive or not, is irrelevant. We could say that burning fossil fuels is conclusive evidence that global temperatures are rising (slightly) So we need to move away from using fossil fuels, or they will be banned ? We could say that these tiny temperature rises make bad weather more prevalent, but does it ? We could say that western governments dont like private firearms ownership, so they will seek to remove those rights over the course of time, but I digress. No one doubts lead is a toxic to life element, yet there is very little evidence that it causes detrimental effects in normal usage, otherwise every single lead risk would have to be removed from the environment. Lead exists in nature, its in our soil, our water and air, but the emphasis appears to be on ammunition use, because that kills 2 birds with one stone, it restricts those private firearms users from using the best tool for the job, while saving a few birds that no one actually cares about really. If they had threatened police and military with a lead ban, something easily achievable as they control it , then I would be more amenable to the 'reason' But the main point is this , if you believe that upending shooting sports in this country is a worthwhile price to pay for a few birds poisoned (despite the fact we shoot or wound a massive amount already) or 'a healthy market for game meat' then thats your right to opinion, mine differs somewhat. What I dont agree with , is the minority opinion being forced on the vast majority, which again, you never put to the test. Happy to agree to disagree. I see no conspiracies. No opinions are being forced - its voluntary. As for 'put to the test' there has been 4 years of consultation and success with the transition so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 4 minutes ago, Rewulf said: the main point is this , if you believe that upending shooting sports in this country is a worthwhile price to pay for a few birds poisoned (despite the fact we shoot or wound a massive amount already) or 'a healthy market for game meat' then thats your right to opinion, mine differs somewhat. What I dont agree with , is the minority opinion being forced on the vast majority, which again, you never put to the test. Exactly 👍 49 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: think it was about accepting there was conclusive evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds - Evidence that you have failed to produce or that GWCT has figures for. Did we not go through this already with the probable , estimated etc posts earlier. There can be no acceptance when there is no conclusive evidence and there is no conclusive evidence without figures to substantiate that position. Continually repeating that false line when you have already conceded it is false is baffling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: there has been 4 years of consultation and success with the transition so far. 10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: all talk and no action. No consultation, no real transitional uptake. All talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Nope, one of the handful suggested a poll and will probably not follow through. Like everything in these threads - all talk and no action. It is a forum so inevitably all talk. 😀Can you substantiate your claim of no action or do you just mean no action in regard to the support of BASC policy. Ponder why that may be then act accordingly if you wish to enjoy grass roots support. By handful do you mean the vast majority of contributors on this thread who are disagreeing with the majority of your posts ? It would be so much easier for you to push through your political agenda if people just accepted your ill thought through policies but that’s not real life and you’re being forced to deal with what is a popular opposition to your views. You just have difficulty accepting that. Edited April 26 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 34 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You would be best talking to Terry Behan. It will really help you. I think its a fantastic listen, very enlightening. I don't insist anything. Its my opinion. I have no plans for any question on the form. Who’s Terry behan? perhaps you could enlighten me or point me in the direction of his workshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 32 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: That sounds like good day out and informative for all - when you have a venue and dates let me know. We could put the world to rights in the pub afterwards and be nice to put some faces to usernames. Is that not what is going on here? Due to my location it’s impossible here however I’m sure you or your organisation know of a steel friendly clay ground As for the pub afterwards that’s a definite no I don’t hold with alcohol and guns or driving on the same day a civilised cup of tea and cake maybe how many Basc employees would you want to field in the steel team? im pretty confident that I can find enough to match your numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: no real transitional uptake. All talk If you ignore the 30 odd percent of birds that couldn’t be determine whether they were shot with steel and consider they were ,or some such jiggery pokery then it’s possible to deduce a compliance rate of 62% unfortunately it’s been assessed at a non compliance rate of 93%. As there seems little first hand knowledge to reflect this major turnaround in compliance rate it seems unlikely. But that’s the nature of the game here zero data and questionable interpretation. It smacks of clutching at straws rather than a strong argument. Credibility being stretched methinks. Edited April 26 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 37 minutes ago, Konor said: Evidence that you have failed to produce or that GWCT has figures for. Did we not go through this already with the probable , estimated etc posts earlier. There can be no acceptance when there is no conclusive evidence and there is no conclusive evidence without figures to substantiate that position. Continually repeating that false line when you have already conceded it is false is baffling. The evidence is conclusive for the impact of lead shot on birds as proven by the research in the UK and worldwide and the GWCT who are the shooting communities' scientific experts agree the evidence is conclusive. Maybe its baffling to you, someone on an internet forum, because you are just wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong when one admits one is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: The evidence is conclusive for the impact of lead shot on birds as proven by the research in the UK and worldwide and the GWCT who are the shooting communities' scientific experts agree the evidence is conclusive. Maybe its baffling to you, someone on an internet forum, because you are just wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong when one admits one is wrong. To be fair GWCT did there study on wildfowl and wetlands a different environment and a different feeding pattern the proof that lead kills wildfowl came from penning up ducks and introducing a massive amount of lead shot so they had no option but to eat it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 37 minutes ago, Konor said: It is a forum so inevitably all talk. 😀Can you substantiate your claim of no action or do you just mean no action in regard to the support of BASC policy. Ponder why that may be then act accordingly if you wish to enjoy grass roots support. Taking BASC as an example. 4 years of moaning on PW by a handful. One question at the 2020 BASC AGM. No questions at 2021, 2022, 2023 AGMs. No calls for an EGM. No mass exodus of members. None of the PW handful running for annual elections 4 years in a row. Just talk and more talk by a handful in the comfort zone of inactive anonymity. Can't even support the PCC campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 33 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Due to my location it’s impossible here however I’m sure you or your organisation know of a steel friendly clay ground As for the pub afterwards that’s a definite no I don’t hold with alcohol and guns or driving on the same day a civilised cup of tea and cake maybe how many Basc employees would you want to field in the steel team? im pretty confident that I can find enough to match your numbers As many as is practicable. I will leave the logistics to yourself and PW members. Suggest you set up a PW members working group to organise the day. Will need some thought and rules as regards which shotgun gauges and which lead and non-lead cartridges. Let PW members in the working group decide. When you have made some tangible progress come back to me and I will discuss with colleagues in BASC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Old farrier said: To be fair GWCT did there study on wildfowl and wetlands a different environment and a different feeding pattern the proof that lead kills wildfowl came from penning up ducks and introducing a massive amount of lead shot so they had no option but to eat it I am not sure the GWCT itself has done or commissioned any research on lead shot, rather that it has reviewed all the research for all habitats and come to the opinion that the weight of evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds warrants a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting to help reduce the impact. All the organisations that signed up to the 2020 voluntary transition agreed. Edited April 26 by Conor O'Gorman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, Old farrier said: Who’s Terry behan? perhaps you could enlighten me or point me in the direction of his workshop Terry Behan is the BASC staff member interviewed in the podcast in the OP. Presume you have not listened to it yet. Here it is again: https://theshoothubpodcast.podbean.com/e/lead-shot-latest/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 Just now, Conor O'Gorman said: Terry Behan is the BASC staff member interviewed in the podcast in the OP. Presume you have not listened to it yet. Here it is again: https://theshoothubpodcast.podbean.com/e/lead-shot-latest/ Is he a qualified gunsmith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 3 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Is he a qualified gunsmith? I don't know. Best to ask him about his qualifications after you listen to the podcast. What do you mean by qualified? Which qualification would you trust in a gunsmith having a different view and experience to your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: The evidence is conclusive for the impact of lead shot on birds as proven by the research in the UK and worldwide and the GWCT who are the shooting communities' scientific experts agree the evidence is conclusive. Maybe its baffling to you, someone on an internet forum, because you are just wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong when one admits one is wrong. Can you produce the figures to substantiate your claim as earlier you failed to do so and the quote from GWCT was to the effect that they had no such data. In fact the majority of the information you quoted was regarding wildfowl in wetland environments,of course what we are considering is quarry species inland in non wetland areas. Figures Selective / partial information only works when trying to pull the wool over the eyes not well versed in your tactics Conor. If taken out of context your statements appear plausible, when taken in their full context they are at best misleading and deliberately so. Not a good look when you are promoting a science based argument. Remember No Science No Change that old BASC war cry. Edited April 26 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 11 minutes ago, Konor said: Can you produce the figures to substantiate your claim as earlier you failed to do so and the quote from GWCT was to the effect that they had no such data. In fact the majority of the information you quoted was regarding wildfowl in wetland environments,of course what we are considering is quarry species inland in non wetland areas. Figures Selective / partial information only works when trying to pull the wool over the eyes not well versed in your tactics Conor. If taken out of context your statements appear plausible, when taken in their full context they are at best misleading and deliberately so. Not a good look when you are promoting a science based argument. Remember No Science No Change that old BASC war cry. I think we are going around in circles here. There is nothing for me to personally substantiate to your good self. The evidence is conclusive on the impact of lead shot on birds. That evidence is worldwide. Pick a hunting organisation or government to challenge on this if you wish - it's not for you or I to argue about the facts. As for UK, if you don't trust the GWCT assessment take it up with the GWCT. I trust the GWCT and this is what they said in 2020: "Many years ago, wetland restrictions demanded a move away from lead shot and we believe it is necessary to begin a further phased transition". https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2020/february/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/ However, whilst we are on the topic of substantiating claims please could you explain your reasoning for this claim about me: 6 hours ago, Konor said: Well we all have strong views on politics and politicians and I’m sure an Irishman will appreciate that more than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Taking BASC as an example. 4 years of moaning on PW by a handful. One question at the 2020 BASC AGM. No questions at 2021, 2022, 2023 AGMs. No calls for an EGM. No mass exodus of members. None of the PW handful running for annual elections 4 years in a row. Just talk and more talk by a handful in the comfort zone of inactive anonymity. Can't even support the PCC campaign. An apathetic membership with no confidence in the organisation, a fair amount only members for the insurance or the off chance that they need legal advice or to support holding on to their licence. Add to that those members who are so only because it is a condition of their syndicate or wildfowling club membership and maybe your support base is substantially weaker than you think. Personality I do a great deal to promote the shooting sports to non participants living and working in the city gives me plenty of opportunities. I can’t shoot enough deer to satisfy the requests I have and I have given up my gun to allow those not so lucky the opportunity to take part in driven shooting. Along with organising many Clay shoots at Cowan Law and elsewhere giving the opportunity for 30 to 40 non shooters to try shooting for the first time None of my involvement entails supporting BASC (although I was involved in the Young shots programme for many years when it was first introduced) and the policies that it is promoting out of what is probably self interest,note not the interest of grass roots shooters. I have attended every GWCT game fair invariably my observation is that on the BASC stand the reps stand around talking to each other or similarly tweed clad friends and remain aloof. The BDS stand in contrast is inclusive, friendly and their reps invariably initiate conversation. BASC you’ve a long way to go and it’s questionable whether your employees can take you there. Frankly your at times pompous arrogant manner is exactly what I witness each Game Fair. Your campaigns are invariably political that’s your comfort zone ,PCC campaign ? I don’t give a monkeys about it there are more important thing to fill my time than to be bothered with it. Edited April 26 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I don't know. Best to ask him about his qualifications after you listen to the podcast. What do you mean by qualified? Which qualification would you trust in a gunsmith having a different view and experience to your own? I mean qualified to bore and regulate a shotgun to get the same pattern with steel that the gun now produces with lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I don't know. Best to ask him about his qualifications after you listen to the podcast. What do you mean by qualified? Which qualification would you trust in a gunsmith having a different view and experience to your own? I guess that if you don’t know the answer is no I’m sure he would at some point he would state “as a qualified gunsmith” to give some credibility to his statements. I expect Old farrier would expect Terry to have gunsmith qualifications so that he was reassured that he was not taking the advice of a layman unqualified to give a professional opinion 15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: it's not for you or I to argue about the facts. But you are unable to present them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 7 minutes ago, Old farrier said: I mean qualified to bore and regulate a shotgun to get the same pattern with steel that the gun now produces with lead He is probably well versed in how to procure a Membership paid for Range Rover, does that count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 15 minutes ago, Konor said: An apathetic membership with no confidence in the organisation, a fair amount only members for the insurance or the off chance that they need legal advice or to support holding on to their licence. Add to that those members who are so only because it is a condition of their syndicate or wildfowling club membership and maybe your support base is substantially weaker than you think. Personality I do a great deal to promote the shooting sports to non participants living and working in the city gives me plenty of opportunities. I can’t shoot enough deer to satisfy the requests I have and I have given up my gun to allow those not so lucky the opportunity to take part in driven shooting. Along with organising many Clay shoots at Cowan Law and elsewhere giving the opportunity for 30 to 40 non shooters to try shooting for the first time None of my involvement entails supporting BASC (although I was involved in the Young shots programme for many years when it was first introduced) and the policies that it is promoting out of what is probably self interest,note not the interest of grass roots shooters. I have attended every GWCT game fair invariably my observation is that on the BASC stand the reps stand around talking to each other or similarly tweed clad friends and remain aloof. The BDS stand in contrast is inclusive, friendly and their reps invariably initiate conversation. BASC you’ve a long way to go and it’s questionable whether your employees can take you there. Frankly your at times pompous arrogant manner is exactly what I witness each Game Fair. Your campaigns are invariably political that’s your comfort zone ,PCC campaign ? I don’t give a monkeys about it there are more important thing to fill my time than to be bothered with it. Thanks but that is rather evasive. My answer to your question about lack of action from PW members was: "4 years of moaning on PW by a handful. One question at the 2020 BASC AGM. No questions at 2021, 2022, 2023 AGMs. No calls for an EGM. No mass exodus of members. None of the PW handful running for annual elections 4 years in a row. Just talk and more talk by a handful in the comfort zone of inactive anonymity. Can't even support the PCC campaign". What say you about the handful moaning on PW? Where is the action by the handful rallying to your cause? Or more specifically where were you in 2020 fighting the voluntary transition because it appears to me that you have been quiet as a mouse on PW on this topic until you recently popped up on PW dominating every thread on lead. And presumably no direct action since 2020. Why have you recently started posting on PW about the voluntary transition? 13 minutes ago, Old farrier said: I mean qualified to bore and regulate a shotgun to get the same pattern with steel that the gun now produces with lead That does not make any sense to me in the context of what Terry said in the podcast based on his extensive experience as a fellow shooter and as BASC's lead on the voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. Terry is hands on with all the BASC events to try out steel, has done loads of patterning and Terry is talking to all the cartridge manufacturers. Have you listened to the podcast in full yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: 1 hour ago, Konor said: I think we are going around in circles here I think you are but none of it involves quoting figures that substantiate the extent of the danger of lead shot to wildlife inland in non wetland areas or have I missed that in your frantic posting. I don’t think so. If you can’t state figures then perhaps in the interest of not going round in circles please just state that you can’t then we can maybe see a more clearer picture of the accuracy of your ad nauseam as yet unsubstantiated claims. Edited April 26 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 9 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said: He is probably well versed in how to procure a Membership paid for Range Rover, does that count? What a lazy idiotic comment. Is that the best you can do? However, it is indicative of the mentality of the handful. 2 minutes ago, Konor said: I think you are but not of it involves quoting figures that substantiate the extent of the danger of lead shot to wildlife inland in non wetland areas or have I missed that in your frantic posting. I don’t think so. If you can’t state figures then perhaps in the interest of not going round in circles please just state that you can’t then we can maybe see a more clearer picture of the accuracy of your ad nauseam as yet unsubstantiated claims. Frantic posting? Were you not the one who said that when the posts come quick and heavy the truth emerges? Well perhaps the uncomfortable truth is that if you think posting ad nauseum on PW is going to change the evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds worldwide I politely suggest that you have lost all sense of perspective and perhaps that 'monster' of social media, as you put it, has consumed you. 28 minutes ago, Konor said: PCC campaign ? I don’t give a monkeys about it there are more important thing to fill my time than to be bothered with it. Like posting ad nauseum on PW. How bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 9 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks but that is rather evasive I thought it was a rather full answer myself 10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: What say you about the handful moaning on PW? Where is the action by the handful rallying to your cause? Or more specifically where were you in 2020 fighting the voluntary transition because it appears to me that you have been quiet as a mouse on PW on this topic until you recently popped up on PW dominating every thread on lead. And presumably no direct action since 2020. Why have you recently started posting on PW about the voluntary transition? 22 minutes ago, Old farrier said: I think the handful are representative of the majority of grass roots shooters that I deduce you are not too familiar with. Unfortunately my work took precedence to becoming involved with BASC and its ill thought through policies. I probably thought at the time that the BASC professionals were representing me and my best interests. As I am now near retirement and have more time to spend I decided to post as I consider your performance is well below par and it has highlighted for me that BASC is not working in my best interests. The quality of your posting, your inability to engage in debate and the lack of logic in your posts has caused me to spend more time than I would like countering your nonsensical approach to the problems facing shooters. Lead minefields for the poor wee partridges , give me strength. How would you rate your own performance ? 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: However, it is indicative of the mentality of the handful. The handful ,and the substantial numbers they represent, are tearing your arguments to shreds so what does that indicate ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.