Licence renewal

[PJ M]

 

Why, I wonder, is it considered necessary to have a shotgun licence renewed every five years.

Surely once a person has been vetted and approved there should be no need for this. Once issued a licence should be for life, in much the same way as driving licences (and a car can be a lot more lethal).

Obviously if the licence holder commits a serious crime or becomes mentally unstable the licence can be revoked. The Police would still have to be informed of the purchase and sale of any firearm and licence holders could still be subjected to spot checks. But I can see no reason why a shot gun licence should be renewed every five years, other than being a money making exercise.

[steve1066]

3 hours ago, PJ M said:

 

Why, I wonder, is it considered necessary to have a shotgun licence renewed every five years.

Surely once a person has been vetted and approved there should be no need for this. Once issued a licence should be for life, in much the same way as driving licences (and a car can be a lot more lethal).

Obviously if the licence holder commits a serious crime or becomes mentally unstable the licence can be revoked. The Police would still have to be informed of the purchase and sale of any firearm and licence holders could still be subjected to spot checks. But I can see no reason why a shot gun licence should be renewed every five years, other than being a money making exercise.

Because the police wouldn’t have money for the policeman’s ball and the same for the doctors ball. 😂This has been mentioned many times.

But if you are going to start a petition, I’ll sign it. 

[HantsRob]

I believe someone on this forum has been selected to trial a 7 year licence? 

Ultimately licence costs do not 100% cover all overheads, so renewals don't pay for anything but the renewal at a loss. It would be in their interest to at least have a 7 or 10 year licence for that reason.

That said, risk management will say mental health and other factors typically develop quickly, so checks are vital to ensure suitability. I do agree though that if GPs and Police reported correctly, that would manage the risks sufficiently to mitigate a 5 year re-check.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

41 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I believe someone on this forum has been selected to trial a 7 year licence? 

Ultimately licence costs do not 100% cover all overheads, so renewals don't pay for anything but the renewal at a loss. It would be in their interest to at least have a 7 or 10 year licence for that reason.

That said, risk management will say mental health and other factors typically develop quickly, so checks are vital to ensure suitability. I do agree though that if GPs and Police reported correctly, that would manage the risks sufficiently to mitigate a 5 year re-check.

Yes indeed I was, BUT it all went wrong when the Home Office guidance and the way that they read it changed dramatically.

My 2 year SGC with a following 5 year SGC to make the 7 years was changed to a standard 5 year SGC.

It was a good idea to relieve some of the pressure from the busiest period of renewal, but it was NOT to be.

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Yes indeed I was

Ah yes I thought it was you. 

That's a shame it went so badly wrong, and whilst it helped with the renewal, it just seemed too good to be true! 

[Loki]

Hi HantsRob

There was a survey done by someone that demonstrated some Polis Services are far more efficient at the Licencing process than others, so they were 'within budget'.

If some can do it why, given the process is the same, sure allowing for some Services with a higher throughput, do some take extraordinary lengths of  time............I had an FC renewal that took 15-18mths - 3 Temp Certs issued! This is after being known to them in the Licencing System for many years and no issues whatsoever.

L

[JonBoyWalton]

I'd be interested to know how many hours it takes to process an application. When you boil it down it can't take that long.

Reading the application, lets say 20mins. Info has already been inputed on line so that saves a job.

Reading the medical, again can't take long, 10mins.

Criminal record check shouldn't take that long, most applicants won't have one so let's say 45mins.

Speaking to reference/gun club 45mins.

Home visit 1 hour plus a bit of travel.

Then admin for printing and posting.

Can't see how it would take more than half a working day for each application so the forces with a back log are either only employing 1 person or they are massively inefficient.

I wish the shooting organisations would do a freedom of information request to get the exact time. Then another for how much each licencing officer costs the police. Then they could work out the actual cost so they can challenge whatever ridiculous price the labour government come up with to fund their knife crime program. 

[eightlittlebits]

46 minutes ago, JonBoyWalton said:

I wish the shooting organisations would do a freedom of information request to get the exact time. Then another for how much each licencing officer costs the police. Then they could work out the actual cost so they can challenge whatever ridiculous price the labour government come up with to fund their knife crime program. 

BASC used to have this sort of information for a number of forces published on Firearms licensing league table - BASC

Sadly they seem to no longer have any plans to update it, figures there are 2022 I believe.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes, I hope they do get round to updating it.

Here is the old one;

https://basc.org.uk/firearms/firearms-licensing-league-table/

[HantsRob]

4 hours ago, Loki said:

Hi HantsRob

There was a survey done by someone that demonstrated some Polis Services are far more efficient at the Licencing process than others, so they were 'within budget'.

If some can do it why, given the process is the same, sure allowing for some Services with a higher throughput, do some take extraordinary lengths of  time............I had an FC renewal that took 15-18mths - 3 Temp Certs issued! This is after being known to them in the Licencing System for many years and no issues whatsoever.

L

Yes, some are better.

But then factor in the overall average time, all it takes is 1 renewal that needs confiscation, then you have the overhead of 2-4 persons to go to the house, then seize, then book in, then do all the admin. You can easily go to 1 day per specialist officer attending, then the civvi's, then the overhead allocation of car, fuel, time, etc. 1 small job could negate any "profit" on 50-100 normal simple jobs. 

3 hours ago, JonBoyWalton said:

I'd be interested to know how many hours it takes to process an application. When you boil it down it can't take that long.

Reading the application, lets say 20mins. Info has already been inputed on line so that saves a job.

Reading the medical, again can't take long, 10mins.

Criminal record check shouldn't take that long, most applicants won't have one so let's say 45mins.

Speaking to reference/gun club 45mins.

Home visit 1 hour plus a bit of travel.

Then admin for printing and posting.

Can't see how it would take more than half a working day for each application so the forces with a back log are either only employing 1 person or they are massively inefficient.

I wish the shooting organisations would do a freedom of information request to get the exact time. Then another for how much each licencing officer costs the police. Then they could work out the actual cost so they can challenge whatever ridiculous price the labour government come up with to fund their knife crime program. 

Reading every single Niche/RMS/similar entry, ensuring you understand, looking at related jobs, and then associates, then their jobs, and getting a complete picture of them and their friends and family. I can assure you, that could be days for some people.

Travel can be far more substantial. Not just getting in and out of a Police facility, but vehicle checks, potentially driving 3-4 hours across county and back again. Then there's the refuelling of the car, it all takes time.

I think you are seeing it with rose tinted lenses. As my first post above, you have to read everything on a system and potentially with associates, relatives, and loved ones.

You haven't factored in desktop cost, plus internet, support from IT, MS 365 licence costs, server storage, plant, power, heat, rent, vehicle, servicing etc. The costs start going up, so many of the costs will not be the direct time taken, however it can take longer.

BAU will always go above a new grant or renewal, such as a complaint or a seizure etc. It all impacts.

Finally you have the governance where work needs to be fully checked end to end in places.  

 

I really do believe if you follow any basic accounting and allocations based on modern industry, they are not making a profit as a whole. That's not to say most couldn't do better, but I do think it's more costly than you think.

[JonBoyWalton]

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

Yes, some are better.

But then factor in the overall average time, all it takes is 1 renewal that needs confiscation, then you have the overhead of 2-4 persons to go to the house, then seize, then book in, then do all the admin. You can easily go to 1 day per specialist officer attending, then the civvi's, then the overhead allocation of car, fuel, time, etc. 1 small job could negate any "profit" on 50-100 normal simple jobs. 

Reading every single Niche/RMS/similar entry, ensuring you understand, looking at related jobs, and then associates, then their jobs, and getting a complete picture of them and their friends and family. I can assure you, that could be days for some people.

Travel can be far more substantial. Not just getting in and out of a Police facility, but vehicle checks, potentially driving 3-4 hours across county and back again. Then there's the refuelling of the car, it all takes time.

I think you are seeing it with rose tinted lenses. As my first post above, you have to read everything on a system and potentially with associates, relatives, and loved ones.

You haven't factored in desktop cost, plus internet, support from IT, MS 365 licence costs, server storage, plant, power, heat, rent, vehicle, servicing etc. The costs start going up, so many of the costs will not be the direct time taken, however it can take longer.

BAU will always go above a new grant or renewal, such as a complaint or a seizure etc. It all impacts.

Finally you have the governance where work needs to be fully checked end to end in places.  

 

I really do believe if you follow any basic accounting and allocations based on modern industry, they are not making a profit as a whole. That's not to say most couldn't do better, but I do think it's more costly than you think.

Hi,

I'll accept my estimates are on the optimistic side and I didn't consider the need to check the applicants associates and family etc but can see why this would be an important and time consuming part of the process.

I do feel however an independent study by a combined group of shooting organisations would be useful to determine the actual cost so they are better placed to fight the shooters corner when the changes to fees are brought forward. Also all forces need to ensure they are working in the most efficient manor possible to reduce costs in the first place. My worry is If there is full cost recovery the incentive to be efficient is reduced.

My other worry, as I'm sure is the worry of many others, is that the new government see us as a cash cow. We are a minority group and given the labour spin that all shooters are rich and why should working class folks fund their hobby, I can't quite see the general public been very supportive of our community so the government can do what ever they like.

When you consider the amount spent on policing protests, marches, carnivals and dare I say it football matches it seems to me there are much bigger cows to milk but maybe that would come with a bit more backlash.

Cheers,

Jon.

 

[HantsRob]

Jon

Good points. But, surely there is a middle ground where a fair average cost is borne by the shooter, but only if it gives a prompt efficient 72 hour service?

It is a tough one as I don't want prices to go up, but likewise would I want to subsidise everyone who wants to hot air balloon and see my money go towards that? No-one wants to pay more, but being fair to all is reasonable. I also would not want to be seen as a cash cow, and also there's a massive debate on right of ownership and "why are we even paying" vs balancing with public safety. 

Protests would indeed be a sensible and logical comparison, same for marches. But I can categorically state that carnivals and football matches pay quite heavily for policing. I believe the x-charge rate 5-6 years ago was £50 an hour for PCs, and £25 for SCs. I am not sure of the PCSO rate. But, I can say certain large events have to pay for a large portion of the policing if not all of it, so that's not out of the public coffers and should be paid from those attending the event albeit indirectly.

I think the main issue with licencing is how it is done, the sitting around eating biscuits, and the wasting of time. But I do support deep dives on cases that need it.

Regardless it's out of our hands and speaking to our MPs won't change anything, but I would love to see efficiencies and an accountable SLA. I have heard countless times "I'd pay more if I got a good service", and whilst some may argue why should they, given the legal need to have a framework then I think fighting for a better service and SLA will come with a cost.

[JonBoyWalton]

Rob

I think a perfect solution would be for applicants to pay 75% with the remainder been funded from police budgets to reflect the fact that licencing is a police duty and as they are tax payer funded to carry out their duties I don't think it unreasonable for them to foot some of the cost.

I agree that most people would be happy to pay an increase in exchange for a better service. 72 hours may be pushing it but 4 weeks would be nice.

The pressure on the police and the cost to applicants could be reduced by moving to a 10 year certificate, removing the need for moderators to be on a certificate and getting rid of the need to apply for a variation if you want to replace a firearm that you have sold etc. Unfortunately I don't think there is an appetite to do anything that appears to make gun ownership in the UK easier.

I think the best we can hope for is 100% of the true cost and we'll all just have to suck it up. May mean a few less rounds down range.

I think the worst we may get is whatever they want to spend per year on tackling knife crime per year divided by the average number of applications per year.

Fingers crossed for the 100%.  

[HantsRob]

Agreed on a "fair percentage" with SLA attached
Agreed on longer certificate issuance
Agreed on moderators and variations, and dare I say more boxes in table 2

I actually think it ironic that people use the excuse of making gun ownership more difficult is a good thing, whereas gun owners will go through the pain regardless. Actually what gun owners are asking is not easier gun ownership, but one that takes less policing away from the central budget, so that money can be spent on preventing bad people getting them, or keeping them, or towards knife crime.

The answer of more money for preventing knife crime ironically could be to make gun ownership transactions less demanding for police.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well then Gentlemen, that will NEVER happen............................

I would happily pay a fair amount for a GRANT, but much of the work is done for a RENEWAL.

And of course they would never agree to be tied down to a 72 hour turn round or anything similar, so that must be part of the need for more efficient staffing of Police Firearms Licensing Departments.

We are being and have been sorely let down and have been for quite a while now, fobbed off with the "we are combining departments to increase efficiency."

It simply NEVER improves, just takes longer, I had hoped with the passing of the covid "EXCUSE" we may have seen an improvement, but it just gets worse.

Edited July 10 by TIGHTCHOKE
Capitalisation.

[manthing]

On 07/07/2024 at 19:34, PJ M said:

 

Why, I wonder, is it considered necessary to have a shotgun licence renewed every five years.

Surely once a person has been vetted and approved there should be no need for this. Once issued a licence should be for life, in much the same way as driving licences (and a car can be a lot more lethal).

Obviously if the licence holder commits a serious crime or becomes mentally unstable the licence can be revoked. The Police would still have to be informed of the purchase and sale of any firearm and licence holders could still be subjected to spot checks. But I can see no reason why a shot gun licence should be renewed every five years, other than being a money making exercise.

The photo driving licence is renewed every 10 years at £14 plus photo.

Takes a few weeks.

Not sure about passports but when I last did mine it was a good experience.