Lead shot ingestion in birds

[Conor O'Gorman]

17 hours ago, Konor said:

Sorry Conor I’m not ploughing through that. I’m guessing that your inability to provide a figure or range of figures indicates that you do not have one so my initial point that you are unable to provide a figure to show the impact of the lead ingestion quoted in the studies provided remains. 
Straight question

Do you have such a figure ?  

The GWCT have provided some figures in this summary:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/

 

17 hours ago, jall25 said:

Conor

Has a study been done as to how long the lead shot remains in the ground as viable "grit" for birds to potentially pick up - I would imagine it varies 

I don't know, it's probably been discussed in a number of studies for different habitats, should I find something I will let you know. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

17 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Well from the evidence you provided the biggest killer of partridge is predation what steps are you or Basc taking to reduce that element 

are you or Basc

actively promoting no mowing in may nationally to protect the nesting habitat 

Our regional teams do shoot visits and advise on all sorts of conservation measures. The GWCT are a great source of advice also, especially on grey partridge. Neither I nor BASC are promoting no mowing in May.

14 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Table 2.15 reveals nothing more than the estimated UK and GB breeding populations for a few bird species.  

The authors made an arbitrary assumption that 1% of the each species would be exposed to poisoning via lead shot, and added a column of figures to show what is meant by 1%.   Maybe they hoped that padding the table with an extra column would make it look more ”scientific”, or perhaps they believe readers would not comprehend the meaning of 1%.   For some reason their calculations ignore Northern Ireland, the 1% result being obtained from GB alone.

Northern Ireland was excluded from the HSE review as NI is not subject to the post-Brexit UK REACH regulations, due to NI protocol. Therefore NI is subject to the EU REACH regulations and would be impacted by the EU restrictions on lead ammunition being considered.

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 hours ago, Konor said:

Shades of padding in a poor honours project .and contributes to reinforcing my view that the “science” supporting the move to abolish lead shot use has a weak case. Conversely a strong case is being made by Conor partially based on this level of scientific scrutiny.
Is the acceptance of any data to reinforce an anti lead shot stance due to blinkered academic bias or purely political convenience ? I’ve yet to see any sign of opposition to further lead shot restrictions by BASC other than the statements made that BASC does not support further restrictions . Where is the case being made by BASC that shows their reasons for opposing such restrictions. Conor himself has spent infinitely more time posting information supporting the exaggerated effects of lead shot ingestion and virtually no posts expanding on the reasoning behind BASC’s opposition to further lead shot restrictions. As a representative of BASC surely his posts should be reflecting BASC’s stated position if opposition to further lead shot restrictions is genuine. Hopefully a detailed post will emerge to attempt to explain the points just made rather than links that so far have seemed to cause diversion due to their volume and inconclusiveness.

BASC has been arguing against a ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting on the basis of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. The GWCT reviewed the evidence in support of the voluntary transition and their findings are outlined here:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/

I appreciate you don't believe in the evidence and that is your choice. However, the fact is that lead shot is being ingested by various bird species and that evidence underpins the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

If restrictions on lead shot are proposed and BASC issues a statement on that then I will share that. As regards this thread we are looking at evidence that some bird species have been found to have ingested lead shot given the doubts expressed previously that that does not happen. There are more species to come.

[Konor]

14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The GWCT have provided some figures in this summary:

The question I asked was do you have a figure for the extent of the impact of ingested lead shot on game bird numbers. Yes GWCT have provided figures but none answering that question . Despite all the various links supplied you still are not able to come up with any figures on the impact of lead ingestion to support your views. Also ever the politician you conveniently ignore the points I have made and the questions asked.

The latest link provided cites a study carried out in 2005  and states that there is no record of any impact on birds ( pheasants and red legged partridges)health and welfare. As the study was carried out pre 2016 this non evidence clearly is irrelevant as DEFRA subsequently decided that there was insufficient evidence to justify further restrictions on the use of lead shot.

 Will you concede that there are no figures that quantify the impact of lead ingestion on game bird numbers ? As your last link and previous links have not contained that information please do not reply with further links, either state the figures that substantiate your opinion or concede that there are no figures to support your crusade that is contributing to the abolition of lead shot.

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

fact is that lead shot is being ingested by various bird species and that evidence underpins the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting

Unfortunately the arguably insignificant ingestion of lead shot has not been shown to have had any population impact and the pie chart posted earlier with the guesstimate 1% death rate attributed to lead shot pales into insignificance when compared to all the other population limiting factors. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Konor
Fixing repitition of the

[Gas seal]

Hi jall when I was wrote earlier about checking the crops of pigeons and found pellets I presumed they were from my gun as i wasn’t looking for ingested pellets. Some years ago I was shooting pigeons and some were very thin and out of condition and a small number were like a round barrel. I weighed most of the pigeons l shot and checked the crops, the lightweight birds were feeding on just rape the heavy healthy birds fed on ivy  . I did this for a couple of months. I found the pigeons feeding on rape would sit in the trees that the other

pigeons were feeding on and not eating the ivy. One of the men who takes pigeons for his birds of prey asks me not to remove the crops as he likes to see what they have been eating. There is nothing to stop any one checking birds for lead ingested shot , wild Justice will and shooters will just go against them.  
    

  Looking at the numbers of pheasants on the chart l thought there were more pheasants in the country, it’s a lot more than woodpigeon. 

  If we respect our quarry we should be finding out for ourselves if birds are being poisoned by ourselves. It’s our way of life and a lot of words and reports about it.      

[Konor]

22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

As regards this thread we are looking at evidence that some bird species have been found to have ingested lead shot given the doubts expressed previously that that does not happen. There are more species to come.

Sorry Conor but I do not  accept your explanation that this thread’s purpose is to challenge doubts expressed as to whether ingestion of lead shot occurs and in light of your reply posts that is understandable.Rather I’m inclined to believe that your purpose is to flood this forum with information that could be misconstrued to be in support of your personal bias that the cessation of lead shot is desirable. As BASCs stance is that there should be no further restrictions on the use of lead shot do you intend posting any information in support of that stance ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Sorry Conor but I do not  accept your explanation that this thread’s purpose is to challenge doubts expressed as to whether ingestion of lead shot occurs and in light of your reply posts that is understandable.Rather I’m inclined to believe that your purpose is to flood this forum with information that could be misconstrued to be in support of your personal bias that the cessation of lead shot is desirable. As BASCs stance is that there should be no further restrictions on the use of lead shot do you intend posting any information in support of that stance ?

BASC's response the final HSE consultation is here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So far we have covered evidence of lead shot ingestion in the UK in grey partridge, red grouse, pheasant, red-legged partridge, and American woodcock in USA. I don't think there has been any research on lead shot ingestion by Eurasian woodcock, black grouse, ptarmigan in the UK or elsewhere. Let's look at some research for various terrestrial bird species in Spain next.

Lead in terrestrial game birds from Spain (2020)

https://doi.org/10.1007/s11356-019-06827-y 

We analysed exposure to Pb and its relationship with lead-based ammunition in seven species of terrestrial game birds—common woodpigeon (Columba palumbus), rock dove (Columba livia), stock dove (Columba oenas), European turtle-dove (Streptopelia turtur), red-legged partridge (Alectoris rufa), Barbary partridge (Alectoris barbara) and common quail (Coturnix coturnix)—from rural and urban areas in different parts of Spain (Valencia, Castilla-La Mancha, Castilla y León, Madrid, Islas Canarias and Navarra).

A total of 530 liver samples were analysed, and the presence of Pb pellets was studied in the crop, gizzard and intestine; the state and appearance of these organs were also analysed. The number of specimens suspected to have ingested Pb shot was 28 (5.6%), and the geometric mean concentration of hepatic Pb was 0.054 μg g−1 (wet weight, ww). A low percentage of samples (4.8%) were above the abnormal exposure threshold (0.65 μg g−1 ww), and, in these specimens, renal Pb concentrations were determined. Common woodpigeons and rock doves from Madrid were found to have high concentrations of Pb in their livers, and, so, both species can be considered to be good bioindicators of Pb contamination in rural (common woodpigeons) and urban (rock doves) environments. Partridges bred for hunting may be more prone to ingesting pellets from the environment, a fact that should be taken into account in management decisions.

[Conor O'Gorman]

With reference to the evidence of lead shot ingestion in woodpigeon above in Spain, also evidence from Denmark where in 1976 a woodpigeon was found dead with 8 pellets in its gizzard. The bird had suffered from diarrhoea. The liver, kidney, and muscles contained 48, 200, and 1.3 ppm of lead respectively.

Lead poisoning in game from Denmark

https://dce2.au.dk/pub/vbs/DRGB11_2.pdf

 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC's response the final HSE consultation is here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

 

Do you intend posting any information in support ? Perhaps some personal insight in defence of BASC’s wish to retain the use of lead shot inland ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

 

With reference to the evidence of lead shot ingestion in rock dove above in Spain, also evidence from USA in 1987 where three rock doves found dead had lead shot pellets in their gizzards and with high measured blood and tissue lead concentrations.

Toxic lead exposure in the urban rock dove

https://meridian.allenpress.com/jwd/article-pdf/23/2/273/2334900/0090-3558-23_2_273.pdf

 

[Konor]

Using the information supplied above  do you think the incidence of birds found dead which also were found to have ingested lead shot sufficient evidence to justify a complete ban on the use of lead shot inland in the UK ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

29 minutes ago, Konor said:

Using the information supplied above  do you think the incidence of birds found dead which also were found to have ingested lead shot sufficient evidence to justify a complete ban on the use of lead shot inland in the UK ?

The evidence, that continues to grow, reviewed by GWCT, underpins a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting in the UK that is being encouraged by shooting organisations. It is your choice to decide what to do as regards continuing to use lead shot for your live quarry shooting, in the knowledge that some of the lead shot from your shooting activities may end up poisoning various bird species in your area. You continually ask me for advice and my own views - I cannot make that decision for you - it is yours and your alone - and I will continue to post evidence in this thread which may help you and the many others reading these updates.

[Konor]

58 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The evidence, that continues to grow, reviewed by GWCT, underpins a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting in the UK that is being encouraged by shooting organisations. It is your choice to decide what to do as regards continuing to use lead shot for your live quarry shooting, in the knowledge that some of the lead shot from your shooting activities may end up poisoning various bird species in your area. You continually ask me for advice and my own views - I cannot make that decision for you - it is yours and your alone - and I will continue to post evidence in this thread which may help you and the many others reading these updates.

I think you are under a misapprehension Conor, possibly caused by speed reading and your eagerness to create a case for your opinions, but if you read over my posts a bit slower you will notice that at no point have I asked for advice and in light of your interpretation of the data you have presented I am right not to do so.

 The thrust of my argument remains that the single percentage rate of ingestion shown in the data you have provided and the isolated cases that you have mentioned are hardly a strong case to justify the restriction of lead shot use inland and the complete lack of any link to quantifiable impact on game bird populations further weakens the case that I think you are attempting to make. Alternatively if your aim is to show that the evidence so far conducted has shown that lead shot deposition has had virtually no measurable impact on game bird populations and your aim has been  to reassure anyone seeking advice that the continuation of the use of lead shot has your support then I applaud you and look forward to further data being provided to reinforce BASC’s continued opposition to further restrictions on the use of lead shot inland.

edit to add.     Despite quoting me in your last reply you fail to answer the question which was do you think the evidence you are quoting justifies a complete lead ban. Yes or No would be sufficient 

Edited 7 hours ago by Konor

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It is your choice to decide what to do as regards continuing to use lead shot for your live quarry shooting, in the knowledge that some of the lead shot from your shooting activities may end up poisoning various bird species in your area

Totally irrelevant to the question asked and a deflection in order to appear to be engaging but really a classic case of avoidance. Perhaps focus on relevance going forward.

[Weihrauch17]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

With reference to the evidence of lead shot ingestion in woodpigeon above in Spain, also evidence from Denmark where in 1976 a woodpigeon was found dead with 8 pellets in its gizzard. The bird had suffered from diarrhoea. The liver, kidney, and muscles contained 48, 200, and 1.3 ppm of lead respectively.

Lead poisoning in game from Denmark

https://dce2.au.dk/pub/vbs/DRGB11_2.pdf

 

A single Pigeon found 49 years ago is evidence to support a 'Voluntary Transition' away from Lead wow!!🤣

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

A single Pigeon found 49 years ago is evidence to support a 'Voluntary Transition' away from Lead wow!!🤣

I think tunnel vision is the only explanation for the clutching at straws level of evidence being presented and relies on apathy and acceptance in order to be a successful tactic.

[Konor]

6 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

A single Pigeon found 49 years ago is evidence to support a 'Voluntary Transition' away from Lead wow!!🤣

As posted earlier this may be part of Conor’s plan to highlight the weakness of the evidence available in order to support BASC’s continued opposition to any further restrictions on lead shot. In that case hats off for a job well done.👏