CPSA Training

[Kaedyn]

I decided to take a lesson with Mike Brett who I found from the CPSA website. Basically I wanted to know how i can check if this guy is any good, as I have read that some people that have taken lessons from coached are not really that impressed. Also is it wactually worth it? Currently I have another lesson booken in mid June with Dan Archer from Bisley, but that costs £80. ANyways below is what the CPSA couse involves, I am skipping Module One as Mike believes I must have learnt that stuff from my first lesson in Bisley.

 

Module Two – Shotgun Skills Course

 

Includes:

 

Approx 4 hours instruction

Gun fit

Stance

Eye Dominance

CPSA “Method†in detail

Gun maintenance & types

Gun hire, 75 cartridges and clays

Diploma on successful completion

Module Two £160 + vat + CPSA Shooting handbook £14.95

[Chard]

A session or two of coaching is definitely worthwhile.

 

What is debatable is whether it has to have anything to do with the CPSA.

 

There are a lot of coaches around who shouldn't really be coaching and they've got CPSA qualifications. If I was going to have any more coaching, I would splash out and treat myself to a session with someone like Carl Bloxham (there was a thread on this recently) and I would travel a fair old distance to do it. I'm not saying that the only good coaches are the top shots like CB, but there are so many duff ones around, and I don't really know how you sort them out. Even recommendation is shakey, as what suits one person wouldn't do for another.

 

Rightly or wrongly, I would want to be damn sure that the coach was a much better shot than me. I've tried to get my head round it, but I still can't understand how I can learn much from someone who's no better than me apart from the fact that sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to see what you're doing wrong and I suppose they don't have to be a great shot for that (I don't think)

 

I suppose it also depends what level you're at. If you're a relative beginner, You're more likely to benefit in some way from any decent tuition. Later on, it gets harder to convince yourself how you would benefit.

[MC]

For what it's worth,

 

I do not think the coach should try and push any particular method of shooting, which is what in my experience the CPSA coaches try and do. A good coach should recognise what will work for you and adapt that stance.

 

I remember a corporate day that I shot a couple of years ago and the senior CPSA coach had a go at me after shooting 10 straight driven clays because I used maintained lead. He also told me that I was holding the gun wrong as I had my hand a long way forward on the forend.

 

Yet I have since been told by two other different coaches that there is nothing wrong with my mounting or technique.

 

At the end of the day you pay your money and take your choice, If the coach being CPSA registered means something to you then fine. But it is not the be all and end all.

[poontang]

Not wishing to sound funny here, but you said a couple of days ago that you hadn't sent off for your SGC. If i was you i would wait until you recieve that before committing yourself to expensive lessons.

[Kaedyn]

Not wishing to sound funny here, but you said a couple of days ago that you hadn't sent off for your SGC. If i was you i would wait until you recieve that before committing yourself to expensive lessons.

 

He said that this would help as i would have a CPSA certificate.

[poontang]

Not wishing to sound funny here, but you said a couple of days ago that you hadn't sent off for your SGC. If i was you i would wait until you recieve that before committing yourself to expensive lessons.

 

He said that this would help as i would have a CPSA certificate.

 

 

 

Who said it would help to have a CPSA certificate?

[Kaedyn]

The guy doing the practice. Maybe he was lying.

 

Anyway i also thought it would be easier to get the license as i can prove that i can shoot and im interested in the sport.

 

Im definatley going to take it up, so the cost isnt a factor

[peter-peter]

certificates dont make you shoot better good coaches do.

[clayman]

Mike Brett is a level one CPSA coach with about 5yrs experience as a qualified coach, but has been shooting and running clay grounds for 20 years or more.

 

Danny Archer is also a CPSA coach, and works at National Clays as well as freelance.

 

Mike is is offering the CPSA Academy package. This has a set lesson structure, offers a certificate, and is part of a progressive series designed to improve a shooter in stages. It has many parrellels with the Scuba training systems where you take a basic PADI cert at one dive school, but can progress to the next level at any other - say on next years holiday at another place - in a set series of progressive lessons.

 

While there are probably 600 CPSA qualified coaches, less than 10% are using the academy scheme as it is quite expensive. Most CPSA instructors just offer regular lessons, £40 / hr plus consumables is about the going rate.

 

Jerry Parks Young

CPSA Senior Coach

[clayman]

I remember a corporate day that I shot a couple of years ago and the senior CPSA coach had a go at me after shooting 10 straight driven clays because I used maintained lead. He also told me that I was holding the gun wrong as I had my hand a long way forward on the forend.

 

Yet I have since been told by two other different coaches that there is nothing wrong with my mounting or technique.

 

Its likely that the coach who suggested improvements was the most perceptive. While you may hit 100% of a given target, what they may be advising, is that given different or harder clays, the present mount or technique could be limiting. Certainly a long fore-end grip will cause gun stalling when it is high on your shoulder, a shortened fore-end grip allows for overswing, more time on the clay ( or ahead), and less chance of running out of swing.

 

Remember, that mount and technique may be alright for what you are doing, but limiting for progression, or other targets.

 

A good coach should be able to teach all techniques, give the pupil a fundamental understanding of them, and a way of analysing each clay and deciding on which technique to apply for that one. We all vary, and where one person may excel with maintained lead, another might find controlled swing through better. No coach should force a method on you, what they should be doing is expanding your knowledge of available preparation, stance, mount and technique variations, and then help you develop the ones that work best for you.

 

The main technique areas can be broken down as follows:

 

Swing through - smoke trail - good for corporate days and getting success early, but limiting on higher scores because of lack of control. Gun hold is back at trap and no lead is perceived. This is also Churchill, where you fire at the bird and the speed of swing provides all lead. The place this is used the most is in trap disciplines where you follow up the clay trajectory and shoot at the target. Gun set up and swing speed do the rest.

 

Controlled swing through - uses good gun hold points and visual pick-ups, gun moves through the clay under control and lead is perceived. Digweed uses this a lot.

 

Pull away - AKA CPSA Method - gun comes up onto the target and so speed and direction are established. Only has one variable, the lead, and is therefore the most fundamental method, and the one that should be mastered first. All other are effectively variations on this once it is understood.

 

Maintained lead - gun comes up in front stays in front - really good for ESK ( but OS tend to use Pull away if using the Russian techniques). Downside is that it can be learnt for all 14 skeet targets, but go to a sporting layout where a similar clay may be faster / slower etc and it can come unstuck, as a new sight picture needs to be learned for a new target. If you are proficient at this you build up whats known as a sight picture library, but you will need a fall back method when an ML sight picture fails.

 

Spot or ambush - useful for hand rolled bunnies, or very long FITASC targets over tree lines or hedges with reference points. Used by many game shooters, simply lift the gun with minimum flight line swing to a spot in the sky where the shot load will intercept the target. This may be straight at it or miles in front!

 

The last main variation is what Bidwell calls Move Mount Shoot, where there is controlled swing, slower than the clay, to a maintained lead ambush point. This is a method with great economy of movement.

 

Most of these need to be learnt or understood both gun up and gun down, as there are applications for both.

 

Jerry Parks Young

Edited May 29, 2008 by clayman

[Kaedyn]

Mike Brett is a level one CPSA coach with about 5yrs experience as a qualified coach, but has been shooting and running clay grounds for 20 years or more.

 

Danny Archer is also a CPSA coach, and works at National Clays as well as freelance.

 

Mike is is offering the CPSA Academy package. This has a set lesson structure, offers a certificate, and is part of a progressive series designed to improve a shooter in stages. It has many parrellels with the Scuba training systems where you take a basic PADI cert at one dive school, but can progress to the next level at any other - say on next years holiday at another place - in a set series of progressive lessons.

 

While there are probably 600 CPSA qualified coaches, less than 10% are using the academy scheme as it is quite expensive. Most CPSA instructors just offer regular lessons, £40 / hr plus consumables is about the going rate.

 

Jerry Parks Young

CPSA Senior Coach

 

Clayman, thanks for the above, but do you actually know if Mike or Danny are good coaches or are they just good enough to teach begininers?

[clayman]

The CPSA structure has three levels:

 

Level One instructor - qualified to train a novice to safely hit a simple target.

Level two coach, to safely advance a B grade shoot in a specific discipline

Level three coach, qualified to all level two disciplines

 

Above that there are is Tutor and Senior tutor, these are the persons who teach the teachers.

 

All CPSA coaches have their qualification levels listed on the CPSA site at www.cpsa.co.uk ( up to L-3, tutor appointments are annual appointments and not listed)

 

I know both instructors personally. Danny has been qualified for 10 yrs or so, and works full time at National Clays, Bisley.

 

Mike is a coach I have personally trained ( I was a senior tutor 2000 - 2006) , and has been doing corporates for 20yrs, but qualified CPSA more recently. He has worked on the CPSA instructor team at the CLA at least two yrs running, as has Danny.

 

Both are competent within their qualification levels. If you wish to advance beyond their experience levels, choose a Level 2 or 3 coach to increase your knowledge, but at the novice level both are perfectly capable of providing what you want. You need only decide whether you want the CPSA academy certificate or not ( not sure, but don't think Danny does them).

 

Jerry

[Double A]

Hi

 

I am a newcomer to the site and have been reading this topic with great interest. I have personally known both JPY and Mike for many years [HI Jerry] both of whom are excellent instructors and shots. Unfortunately, I must agree that there are some instructors out there who are not so good and I am afraid to some extent you do take pot luck, so if at all possible go by recommendation and look for testimonials.

 

It has happened in the past where we have had pupils for a lesson who have previously had a lesson with another instructor only to find that they had not even been given the basic dominant eye test and as any good instructor knows eye, gun fit, gun mount and stance, are the basic foundations upon which all the rest is built. If you dont get this right right from the start then you will not get consistancy and the average beginner will develop faults which can become engrained and as such very difficult to correct. It is much easier to teach a novice than someone who has shot for some time because they do not have any preconceived ideas and faults and dont resist any suggestons made.

 

On a personal note I started shooting shot gun at 17 and I am now 62 and AA class. I was also pistol captain at Carshalton rifle & pistol club prior to the pistol ban. I have come to the conclusion that the best instructors are the ones who teach a lot of people in a year [hundreds+] both of which Mike and Jerry do [i include myself in this] as this gives them the necessary experience to be able to spot any errors the shooter is making and to quickly come up with the correct solution to help them. As for the Academy I think its a great idea because its structured course brings consistancy and most important of all SAFETY!!!!

 

I would also like to add a final note that there are some police forces who are going in the direction of insisting that would be licence holders show proof of having taken some sort of safety course before the licence is granted. Whilst this is not legally enforcable at present who knows what the future will hold.

[Chard]

Interesting first post Double A and welcome to PW.

 

I agree with what you say about some coaches and the lack of basics. Unfortunately, I've seen this many times at my own club, where one of the coaches is out there with a new shot, and as I've walked past I've noticed straight away that they have all their weight on the back foot. The coach didn't seem to notice or wasn't bothered, which I found odd. If I was showing a novice how to shoot, I'd make them get the stance and gun mount right, before they even fired a shot. In my opinion, if you can get those two things right, you're more than halfway there

[clayman]

I would also like to add a final note that there are some police forces who are going in the direction of insisting that would be licence holders show proof of having taken some sort of safety course before the licence is granted. Whilst this is not legally enforcable at present who knows what the future will hold.

 

This is the reason the CPSA has developed the Academy and its certification.

 

While the shooting associations do not necessarily agree with compulsory basic training ( although in many EEC countries this is already in place), what they do see is that their is a fair likelihood this will happen in the future.

 

The CPSA would prefer that existing NGB instruction schemes were adopted, rather than an ill conceived scheme being put in place by a bureaucrat with little understanding of the sport.

 

The syllabus of the Academy courses is very good, and basically covers what used to be a full one day course called the Competency course, but in a series of progressive lessons.

 

The only question is value for money, the certified Academy lessons are pitched at a fairly high price, and bearing in mind other CPSA coaches can and will provide the same content without the certificate for an hourly rate plus consumables. it is just a question of whether the certificate has a value at this time, when compulsory basic training is not a pre-requisite of getting a SGC or shooting on a range.

 

One of the concepts of the CPSA certificate was that if a shooter turned up at a ground they were unknown to, certificate holders ability and safety was already proved and they could shoot without further supervision. A new shooter without a certificate would be asked to take an initial lesson and become certified, with the certificate now acceptable to all other Academy grounds. Also, as the syllabus was defined and progressive, the different levels could be taken with different coaches at different grounds. For this to work, the majority of grounds and qualified coaches would need to adopt the CPSA Academy approach, but a year after its launch the uptake by grounds and coaches has not been as high as CPSA would have hoped.

 

Only time will tell if Academy will become the primary route into clay shooting, but it exists now and cannot be faulted on the quality of content.

 

Jerry

[peter-peter]

this posting is going all one way. IE people canvassing for the cpsa.

I have been shooting shotgun since 1948

coaching as well.

I teach safety first check eye domination, gun fit, correct stance, the people I have coached are all doing well

one lad hitting 48 /50 esp. on a regular basis,.I don't need a cpsa diploma to do my job.

I have no doubt the cpsa would like all newcomers to our sport to have to qualify with them before applying for an sgc.

That would make them meggabucks.

At one time I thought the cpsa stood to help all shooters not just take money off them.

this post should now close.

Edited June 12, 2008 by peter-peter

[clayman]

There is a heavy mis-conception that the CPSA profits from its courses, but in fact this is far from the case. All CPSA courses are heavily subsidised from general members' funds, on the basis that training is good for everybody and all members can benefit. The CPSA spent in excess of £80,000 in the last year on Academy, while its direct returns ( ie course fees) were less than a quarter of that. Course fees are calculated on direct costs ( ie venue, staff on the day, clays, cartridges, course material etc). They do not include HQ administration costs at all.

 

Realistically, if every CPSA course had to pay its own way, fees would need to be more than doubled - and this would not be out of line with fees for private training in industry. Many professional courses charge upwards of £300 a day, and have nothing like the staff / pupil ratios the CPSA courses have ( 18 clients on a L-1 instructors course are supported by 3 tutors, 3 range assistants, and three assessors plus the course manager ).

 

On the certified Academy lessons the fees are set by, and go to, the instructor as a business, not to CPSA - who only make a subsidised and nominal charge for course material.

 

I am always unhappy when I see persons knocking the CPSA and accusing them of profiteering. The CPSA is a non-profit organisation, and raises money through its products and membership fees, but also gains considerable sponsership that goes towards lowering over-all costs.

 

Sorry Peter, but I simply cannot agree with your opinion, the CPSA never has, and never will, operate anything on a profiteering basis. I have many differences with the CPSA and do not agree with they way they do many things, but I try to invoke change for the better of all shooters by working with CPSA, (and other organisations like BASC, ICSI, APSI, GPCSI etc), not against them.

 

Jerry

Edited June 11, 2008 by clayman

[peter-peter]

Agree or not jerry. the recent postings by yourselves seem to imply that if a coach is not cpsa registered he or she is no good this is far from the case,

there are very good coaches non cpsa.

why should we pay £800 plus for a cpsa certificate that will not make us better at our jobs

ourselves, we have a cpsa reg safety officer, I am constantly having to point him in the right direction,

he is only young and does not always see danger. so much for his piece of paper.

I am not objecting to advertising for cpsa coaches

just the knocking of other coaches like myself non cpsa.

pete.

Edited June 12, 2008 by peter-peter

[clayman]

Agree or not jerry. the recent postings by yourselves seem to imply that if a coach is not cpsa registered he or she is no good this is far from the case,

 

Thank you Peter.

 

I respect your views, but I have never knowingly stated what you consider my postings imply.

 

If you could quote the statements from any of my postings that imply my opinion is that non-cpsa coaches are no good, I'd be happy to expand on anything I have said if it poorly phrased.

 

What I do believe, is that there are a great number of self appointed private instructors providing training whose knowledge is far from complete, and whom would benefit from training ( BASC, CPSA, APSI, GPCSI etc). This statement does not imply that there are not others who are perfectly capable.

 

I can also say with conviction, having been the Safety and Training manager at the CPSA for 5 years, and placed 500+ instructors and coaches through their courses, is that a significant number of these have said after the course that they gained a huge amount of knowledge from the structure and training provided in the CPSA Instructor / Coaching courses, and that they felt the quality of their knowledge and coaching capability was dramatically improved by receiving training. This includes instructors from some of the top commercial shooting grounds in the UK and overseas.

 

I have also stated that when an outside client is seeking an instructor, choosing one with an appropriate qualification from a qualifying body ( and I have provided detail on the CPSA levels I'm familiar with) is a way of ensuring they get a minimum standard, as each has been assessed by three independent assessors (in the CPSA case) as competent. Once again, that advice does not say non-CPSA coaches are "no good" - merely that there is no ratification of that persons capability by an outside body, to help pupils make an informed choice. Without a qualification, the pupil must rely on reputation and recommendation.

 

Regards

 

impartially is the key word

 

Jerry

[peter-peter]

What I do believe, is that there are a great number of self appointed private instructors providing training whose knowledge is far from complete, and whom would benefit from training .

the above sentence saes it all jerry.

[Catamong]

Peter,

 

Are you suggesting they join the academy, if so it appears to contradict most of what you've been saying..??

 

I'm of the opinion that the very best coaches in this country are not Academy members, because they don't have to be, their order books are pretty full months in advance simply through word of mouth.

 

I'd also be surprised if the Academy is still around in a year or so's time, as Jerry quite rightly says, it's being heavily subsidised by the CPSA from members funds, and that's a situation that obviously can't continue for long.

 

Cat.

[peter-peter]

Peter,

 

Are you suggesting they join the academy, if so it appears to contradict most of what you've been saying..??

 

I'm of the opinion that the very best coaches in this country are not Academy members, because they don't have to be, their order books are pretty full months in advance simply through word of mouth.

 

I'd also be surprised if the Academy is still around in a year or so's time, as Jerry quite rightly says, it's being heavily subsidised by the CPSA from members funds, and that's a situation that obviously can't continue for long.

 

Cat.

no just the oposite cat the sentence I listed was a copied reply from clayman . who seems to be very cpsa orientated,

I am an independant coach and will stay that way. as i hope will many more.

too much registration and legislation is in my opinion making our already financially overburdend sport very expensive,

when I started shooting 60 years ago. we where taught by our betters, and we listened.

they did'nt need diploma's and neither do we.

does that explain my position better hope so///pete///

[clayman]

What I do believe, is that there are a great number of self appointed private instructors providing training whose knowledge is far from complete, and whom would benefit from training .

the above sentence saes it all jerry.

 

Well, two things here Peter:

 

Firstly the sentence is carefully worded. It does not say ALL self appointed coaches - indeed, it does not even say the majority of - simply that there a lot of them. That just means significant numbers.

 

These people are usually competent shots, and provide helpful guidance at their local club. Some do it part time or even full time professionally. Some charge, some don't. Many do not have professional indemnity insurance (club cover and BACS / CPSA personal membership does not cover coaching - coaching activities are only insured if either the club has a commercial policy, or the instructor has either their own commercial cover, or professional indemnity via National Coaching Foundation, or CPSA PA insurance.) Even fewer are Child Protection cleared as they should be if teaching minors, or hold valid First Aid at Work certificate, which would also be a good idea. There are many observations on this forum from other coaches who observe poor coaching happening around them, and I get many pupils coming onto to me from other coaches who have not had the basics you so rightly describe. My opinion on this matter is based on personal observation and experience - but you mis-read my statement if you think it means I think all non-CPSA coaches are rubbish - it simply does not say that.

 

Secondly, I also believe one can never stop learning. I learn every time I am involved with others, whether they are training me, or me training them. I actively encourage all persons to continue to expand their knowledge and experience - and one of the best ways of doing this is involving oneself in professional run courses where you get the benefit of many years of cumulative knowledge and experience, plus the pleasure of interaction with other instuctor/coach/tutors/assessors - all of whom have knowledge to add to ones own.

 

My observations on this matter are to help raise the standards of coaching generally, by encouraging developing coaches without qualifications to engage on certified learning programs. I do not see how this opinion can be anything but beneficial to the sport.

 

Jerry

[Highlander]

In reply to the question...only if you wanna shoot clays. The CPSA (although they won't admit to it) would love to see live quarry shooting banned. Think what that would do to their coffers! If you intend to shoot live quarry rather than clays then you should certainly have some tuition but in 'quarry specific' mode. DO NOT trust CPSA for live quarry shooting sports 'cause when push comes to shove they'll be doing a lot!

[Chard]

In reply to the question...only if you wanna shoot clays. The CPSA (although they won't admit to it) would love to see live quarry shooting banned. Think what that would do to their coffers! If you intend to shoot live quarry rather than clays then you should certainly have some tuition but in 'quarry specific' mode. DO NOT trust CPSA for live quarry shooting sports 'cause when push comes to shove they'll be doing a lot!

 

I don't agree that the CPSA want to see game shooting banned. They seem to want to distance themselves from it, no doubt hoping to escape the attention of the antis, in the event that the government starts to ban game shooting, but that's quite a different thing, even if it's not very admirable. I would sooner see the CPSA stand together with BASC and other shooting organisations for the common good of shooting sports, but they seem to have chosen a sneaky way out.

 

I think they can see that many game shooters would not necessarily turn to clay shooting if they were banned from participating in their sport and those that would be happy to shoot clays are probably doing so already, to keep their eye in.

 

I'm not trying to defend the CPSA, because I don't have much time for them myself, but speaking for clay shooters in general, I believe they would be strongly opposed to banning game shooting and would be supportive of the sport, even if the CPSA chose to keep it's head down.